Are you forced to take vaccinations in the Marines?

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DJANGO

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I'm still adamant that I had it 2-3 months before it officially came to the UK. It went through my friends and family like a hot knife through butter. Anyone that had that, knew it was something very different. I was coughing for well over a month.

I agree with this, I’m sure I saw a few stories in the first half of 2019 about mysterious virus outbreaks in China which then weren’t reported on until Jan 2020 when European governments collectively crapped their pants because it was spreading everywhere. And October-November 19 everyone I work with went down with some mysterious flu which, in hindsight, had all the symptoms of COVID-19. Personally that month I was sick as a dog, coughing, sneezing, farting and had swollen glands in my neck and nether regions, felt completely knackered for a good month after but didn’t think much of it just put it down to bad regular flu. So I think it’s more than likely that it went through a good portion of the population before being officially declared, anecdotally speaking.
 

Captain Muggs

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Big pharmaceutical companies making a profit is business as usual, although arguably morally wrong. What concerns me is that governments have given these companies immunity from prosecution with any damages caused by these vaccines.
Once the Pharmaceutical companies have had their feed, the lawyers will come in to finish whatever is left of the Treasury carcass.

There will certainly be challenges, but whether or not our courts are independent or not is a big worry for me. Sadly, I fear they are not.

The Nuremberg code is detailed in banning medical experiments on people without their consent. Coercion, giving them freedoms in exchange for consent, is not consent. The Gov will argue that these are not experiments and the science is settled on this vaccine. That's fine, if they are no longer experiments, then lift the immunity that pharmaceutical companies have for making them.

In an independent court, the Gov will struggle and I think it knows it.

This is a very valid point and one I have been following closely with regards to the legality of the situation. What the government are doing is in many ways unlawful, completely in breach of the Nuremberg code. Many people are realising this now and the government know it.
 
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ThreadpigeonsAlpha

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And yet we already accepted (or conceded) many years ago that we no longer had the right to not wear a seat belt while driving or not wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle.
Which a lot of politicians spoke out against.
Surely someone should be able to not wear a seat belt and accept the consequences. Play silly games, don’t be surprised when you get silly prizes.

Was this the beginning of the loss of accountability for ones actions and a constant culture of blaming and expecting the government to wipe our bums?
 

1919

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To be fair the way the virus was handled at least locally in China was very good. The lockdown and quarantine procedures that were so strictly adhered to are the reason why they're allowed out and about now. I can tell you first hand how rigorous just the arrivals process is into the country, let alone once you're at your government controlled hotel for a 2 week quarantine. They've also put a halt on 95% of their visas, hardly letting any foreigners in unless they have Chinese passport. It's the same case in Australia too as well as Korea; no flights allowed in, then when they eased up it was hotel quarantine and a strictly enforced limit on how far you could go from your home.

Having done 3 flights to America since the pandemic, it is shambolic how it's been handled. Only screened going INTO Dallas, not leaving. Nowhere else had it. And even then it was just a questionnaire which you just say yes to. Every single thing is open, be it shop, bowling alley, cinema. Mask policies seem to be self-interpreted and vary from restaurant to restaurant, shop to shop. It shouldn't be a hard thing to control the spread, people just make it hard.

Respectfully, this logic is a red herring. If enough people think like this, it's already over.

It's not for the government to be circumventing parliament, long-established laws and traditions to 'allow you out' or to be shutting down businesses based on their assumption that one particular risk trumps a myriad of other considerations.

It's a simple equation, really. If this level of arbitrary government intervention is established for a risk of this level, we will not be a free society any more.

Doubtless millions of lives would have been saved had we put homosexuals in camps during HIV/AIDS and made sexual activity legal only between married partners (maybe even only with a state-approved officer present to check documentation too). Would that have been the right thing to do?
 

ThreadpigeonsAlpha

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To be fair the way the virus was handled at least locally in China was very good. The lockdown and quarantine procedures that were so strictly adhered to are the reason why they're allowed out and about now. I can tell you first hand how rigorous just the arrivals process is into the country, let alone once you're at your government controlled hotel for a 2 week quarantine. They've also put a halt on 95% of their visas, hardly letting any foreigners in unless they have Chinese passport. It's the same case in Australia too as well as Korea; no flights allowed in, then when they eased up it was hotel quarantine and a strictly enforced limit on how far you could go from your home.

Having done 3 flights to America since the pandemic, it is shambolic how it's been handled. Only screened going INTO Dallas, not leaving. Nowhere else had it. And even then it was just a questionnaire which you just say yes to. Every single thing is open, be it shop, bowling alley, cinema. Mask policies seem to be self-interpreted and vary from restaurant to restaurant, shop to shop. It shouldn't be a hard thing to control the spread, people just make it hard.
That’s because they have a poor human rights record and were welding doors to high rise buildings shut, with people inside them. Sick or not. The uncensored footage coming out from China that their government didn’t manage to detect was absolutely appalling.
They are still accountable for this, they should face consequences and sanctions.

It’s amazing how you can contain things with a complete disregard to the individual and a total devotion to the communist cause.

That being said, we were to the other extreme, with the media putting pressure on the government to bring people home, the. Suddenly turning on them, as usual and gobbing off about lockdowns. As usual the media and its nonexistent spine do nothing but sway and look for knee jerk reactions.
 

ThreadpigeonsAlpha

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Respectfully, this logic is a red herring. If enough people think like this, it's already over.

It's not for the government to be circumventing parliament, long-established laws and traditions to 'allow you out' or to be shutting down businesses based on their assumption that one particular risk trumps a myriad of other considerations.

It's a simple equation, really. If this level of arbitrary government intervention is established for a risk of this level, we will not be a free society any more.

Doubtless millions of lives would have been saved had we put homosexuals in camps during HIV/AIDS and made sexual activity legal only between married partners (maybe even only with a state-approved officer present to check documentation too). Would that have been the right thing to do?
Not to mention the untold numbers of people being denied life saving treatment, surgeries and care for alignments that aren’t Covid.

There’s countless numbers of cancer victims being denied treatment.
 

Captain Muggs

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Not to mention the untold numbers of people being denied life saving treatment, surgeries and care for alignments that aren’t Covid.

There’s countless numbers of cancer victims being denied treatment.
I saw the other day that the UN world food programme has estimated that 270,000,000 people face starvation globally because of Covid lockdowns and polices, making it the single most deadly policy ever adopted by governments. Killing far more than Mao, Stalin and Hitler combined.
 

Chelonian

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Surely someone should be able to not wear a seat belt and accept the consequences.
A fair argument. But aside from niche factions nobody now disputes it.

An unintended consequence was the dramatic fall in the number of organ donors because fewer organs are now available to be harvested from young, healthy road casualties. Winners and losers, I guess.
 

1919

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Not to mention the untold numbers of people being denied life saving treatment, surgeries and care for alignments that aren’t Covid.

There’s countless numbers of cancer victims being denied treatment.

Very true. Also, in my view, a 35 year old having his business destroyed, life work in tatters, unable to feed his kids through no fault of his own. That's a bigger tragedy than an 81 year old dying.

We've lost a lot of bearings as a society about what's right and wrong, the value of life etc. I think the existential stuff of all this worries me more than anything else at the minute.
A fair argument. But aside from niche factions nobody now disputes it.

An unintended consequence was the dramatic fall in the number of organ donors because fewer organs are now available to be harvested from young, healthy road casualties. Winners and losers, I guess.

Ah, fable of the bees. Definitely a lot of truth in vices creating social benefit in roundabout ways.
 

thirdtry

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On the whole, pandemics are generally handled a lot better through total authoritarian decision making. Too many people in the west are seeing this argument as some sort of Trojan Horse to surrendering all other liberties but COVID/pandemics should be viewed as an isolated/compartmentalised aspect, not as a bigger picture about civil liberty. Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, China etc have all displayed some of the lowest death tolls and are all back to relative normality as a result of getting very strict very early. Likewise Western style democracies like Aus and NZ took the authoritarian approach and are also back to normality, save the occasional circuit-break lockdown. The UK and much of Europe, the US and Canada, and basically any country that has attempted to balance safety with liberty, have suffered as a consequence.

Asia was bound to have handled it better, as they have, because they were the front line of SARS, Swine Flu, Bird Flu etc before and there were lessons learnt. Having lived in Hong Kong myself I can say that the knock-on affects of SARS when I was there about 15 years later were still obvious - masks were commonplace and considered good manners if you felt a little poorly, the subway (MTR) was disinfected 2-3x per day with lots of strict hygiene rules, interestingly many Hong Kongers were quite averse to human contact too, with handshakes mainly being an expat thing. But, totally unrelated post-2019 democracy issues aside, there was still a real sense of freedom and liberty in HK when I was there. In fact I'll throw a fox amongst the birds and say I honestly felt more free (and carefree) as a man there than I have felt in the UK for a long time before COVID. Yes, I've come back to rejoin and finally serve the UK and its interests, but when it comes to the whole liberties and freedoms thing I found many countries feel a lot more free than here in the UK and once I've made a career in the military and decide it's time to leave I reckon I'll be itching to get away again.


Unrelated to the rest of my post - someone said it was a crazy conspiracy that COVID was created in a lab. I'll just chip in on that to say it's not even a conspiracy at this point - the WHO is actively investigating whether the virus is a product of the Biowarfare lab in Wuhan. My dad is one of the senior civilian staff at NATO and has been ranting online since March last year about how it's also something NATO hopes to investigate/raise on the international stage, as there are many senior individuals within NATO that believe it is man-made. Does this mean it was deliberately released as a weapon? Well that we have no idea and maybe never will. It could genuinely have been a lab mistake and a total accident. It also may NOT be man-made. But don't doubt the possibility that it is because there's BIG players on the international stage that are at least investigating whether it is.
 

sy_lume

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To be fair, I don't think he said he was anti vax, just anti covid vax (at this point in time). Bit like saying that just because you don't like Lada's, doesn't make you anti car.
I know mate, just thought it was funny. You can't force someone to get a vaccine, but I so got told if I didn't have my anthrax vaccine I couldn't deploy anywhere ‍♀️
 

G_commando

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Well it's obvious the rm/rn are a bit cautious about the after effects becuse every one who had covid in Norway this year was sent home after being clear of it.
 

Mosquito

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Respectfully, this logic is a red herring. If enough people think like this, it's already over.

It's not for the government to be circumventing parliament, long-established laws and traditions to 'allow you out' or to be shutting down businesses based on their assumption that one particular risk trumps a myriad of other considerations.

It's a simple equation, really. If this level of arbitrary government intervention is established for a risk of this level, we will not be a free society any more.

Doubtless millions of lives would have been saved had we put homosexuals in camps during HIV/AIDS and made sexual activity legal only between married partners (maybe even only with a state-approved officer present to check documentation too). Would that have been the right thing to do?
That’s because they have a poor human rights record and were welding doors to high rise buildings shut, with people inside them. Sick or not. The uncensored footage coming out from China that their government didn’t manage to detect was absolutely appalling.
They are still accountable for this, they should face consequences and sanctions.

It’s amazing how you can contain things with a complete disregard to the individual and a total devotion to the communist cause.

That being said, we were to the other extreme, with the media putting pressure on the government to bring people home, the. Suddenly turning on them, as usual and gobbing off about lockdowns. As usual the media and its nonexistent spine do nothing but sway and look for knee jerk reactions.
Thanks for the dignified replies. Seems nowadays having an opinion that differs to someone else's is warrant enough to line you up on the chopping block! Makes a nice change!

As an answer I'd just refer you to @thirdtry 's comment, he has put it a lot better than my meager mind can. I have difficulty going from brain to keyboard. With the West being so free and democratic, people are obviously going to take issue when their liberties are put on hold. Not being able to do most the stuff you did in a pre-lockdown life has definitely taken its toll and the fact we had been dipping in and out of strict lockdown to an eased one to tier systems just made everyone fed up by this point. Multiple news outlets looking for the next sensationalized story to stir the pot, very much agree with you there.

As for your question of camps and whatever being the right idea, I never implied that and would never think that. All I'm trying to say is with the current virus we needed some form of control from the get-go, as opposed to a year later. As an island there is no real excuse as to why borders couldn't be closed straight away when we saw what it did to Italy. Ample time to prepare for the worst when looking at their situation. Until a couple months ago Heathrow lacked the proper screening for arrivals and people were just coming in on their own accord. I had a great number of passengers onboard refusing to fill out paperwork or asking if they actually had to isolate on arrival. Nothing we can do to enforce it. All this because your average Joe doesn't like to be told what to do.

Regardless, thanks for the healthy debate! I don't *text deleted* feel like we're derailing this thread though -nailbiting-
 

J9R4W

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Well it's obvious the rm/rn are a bit cautious about the after effects becuse every one who had covid in Norway this year was sent home after being clear of it.
Hi, just to clarify, was it that personnel were sent home to avoid spreading the virus or that they were sent home due to suffering from the after-effects of covid? Cheers.
 

G_commando

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They had covid and recovered from it then were sent home. None had any after effects but the navy doctors just wanted to be cautious as making some one do vigorous exercise and be out in -30 could raise issues. There isn't too much research on the after effects of covid so far.
 

GreyWing

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I think we will know the truth about the vaccine within the next 6 months. There is one set of people that don't lie, the health and life insurance underwriters. At some point they will start to look into the data.

If they start charging policy more for a policy due to not having the jab then we'll know it is safe. If they start charging you more for having the jab, then we'll know something is wrong.

If they don't ask, then I don't think the job makes a difference either way.
 
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