Article in the Daily Mail 2016

Discussion in 'RM Operational News' started by G & G, Jan 2, 2016.

  1. G & G

    G & G Active Member

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    I'm a parent of a recruit just about to start week 7. We don't have any family or friends in the forces so advice on this would be appreciated.
    Thank you
     
  2. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker Careers Adviser

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    Firstly it's the Daily Mail who like to whip up hysteria.

    War crimes will be investigated, much the same as civil crimes. As long as the Rules of Engagement & the Geneva Convention are followed, as all recruits will learn, they are acting within international law. When they step outside of those protocols, they maybe charged.

    My guess is most charges will be levelled against prisoner handlers at the rear echelons rather than those involved at the sharp end, actually on the field of battle, where rules of engagement are clearly defined.

    Beyond that it is impossible to speculate, but hopefully things will become clearer.
     
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  3. Fibonarchie

    Fibonarchie Active Member

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    Frankly, its pretty disgusting-assuming that it is being conducted by the MoD- that they're happy to investigate this sort of thing but are still unable to provide the official report.
     
  4. Chelonian

    Chelonian Well-Known Member

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    As Ninja implies, the Daily Mail is regarded by many as being a not particularly credible news source, frequently using obfuscation to suit the story it is trying to peddle. A quick squizz at the link reveals (my bold):

    "British soldiers could face murder charges for their actions on the battlefield during the Iraq war.

    Investigators from the Iraq Historic Allegation Team (Ihat) set up by the Ministry of Defence disclosed last night that UK soldiers who have served in Iraq may face prosecution for crimes including murder.

    It is likely to raise fears among hundreds of soldiers that they could be arrested and charged for simply doing their duty
    ."

    British service personnel are required to conduct themselves correctly within International Law, Geneva Conventions and Queen's Regulations as well as other disciplinary codes which I can't recall off-hand.

    My personal opinion is that it is reassuring that alleged failings in standards of behaviour are investigated in a proper manner. The key phrase here is of course 'alleged failings'.
     
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  5. Illustrious

    Illustrious Royal Marines Commando - Moderator

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    As already stated, the allegations are just alleged incidences.

    That said, the Daily Mail has alleged to be a credible newspaper for many years, but no evidence of that has ever come to light, so I needn't worry.
     
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  6. ZeroNoxx

    ZeroNoxx Member

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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35211336

    Here it is on the BBC website. Whether you feel the BBC is a trustworthy and credible, unbiased source of news is of course your own opinion. Still probably better than getting the facts from the Daily Mail or the Guardian.
     
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  7. fckdandbombed

    fckdandbombed Active Member

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    I heard this on the radio aswell, good to see there doing something useful..
     
  8. Chelonian

    Chelonian Well-Known Member

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    Funnily enough the Iraq Historic Allegations Team has existed since November 2010; over five years according to my arithmetic.

    The story appears to have arisen like Lazarus because of an interview scooped by The Independent newspaper in which Mark Warwick, IHAT's lead, recently stated:

    "Ihat’s initial target for completion of its investigations was 2016 but this will not be met. And, although the unit is funded until 2019, its work may not be finished by then."

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ing-iraq-conflict-investigators-a6793271.html

    My personal interpretation is that Mark Warwick is simply 'kicking the can along the road' because IHAT's initial and probably unrealistic 2016 target for completion will now be missed. I would speculate that this is because of funding issues associated with the unfortunate reality that as awareness of IHAT spreads within Iraq, it is attracting possibly spurious claims from some who may be motivated by the hope of financial compensation.
    My own speculative target for IHAT's completion is more realistically 2026 or even later. And that's just for the investigative phase. The prosecution of alleged crimes would have a separate, additional timeline.

    Other stuff about IHAT:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/iraq-historic-allegations-team-ihat

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Historic_Allegations_Team

    The notion of accountablilty is of course nothing new. The earliest historic—and only recently partially stood down—investigation that I know of into the conduct of British military personnel focused on allegations related to the Mau Mau uprising in Kenya in the early 1950s.
     
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  9. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker Careers Adviser

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    I think @Chelonian has hit the nail on the head with regard the investigations taking longer than anticipated, hence the reason it has come to the fore.

    Legal aid is paid to ALL individuals who submit claims and solicitors make a lot of money out of it, so perhaps this may explain the volume and complexity of the investigations. The MOD has to investigate because there may well be valid claims amongst the dross and because of it, justice must be seen to be done if we are to maintain credibility as a global force for good.
     
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  10. Caversham

    Caversham Former RM Commando

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  11. Chelonian

    Chelonian Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Anecdotally I know of several US and European-based law firms actively 'ambulance-chasing' potential claimants. The law firms will be funded whatever the result in many cases. The biggest losers will be those—relatively few—Iraqis who have a legitimate claim which will be bogged down for years by chancers claiming for non-existent relatives or even goats in extreme circumstances.

    Any modern war creates a 'win-win' commercial opportunity scenario in its aftermath. The obscene rush to install mobile telephone network capacity in post-war Iraq was a classic example.
     
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  12. GreyWing

    GreyWing Nobody

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    The answer for these people is quite simple, the lawyers do not get paid unless they win their cases. At the moment they get paid legal aid to take the cases regardless of merit, no matter if the complaint is dropped before the case gets to court - this has to be is wrong.

    These people should only be paid if they win, not a penny until. It is after all how the defamation courts work. The lawyer puts his own money where his mouth is, if he or she doesn't win - he or she doesn't get anything. There are only two Barristers in the whole of the UK that are willing to do that. The rest don't want to play the legal version of "pays to be a winner " funnily enough :D
     
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  13. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker Careers Adviser

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    Possibly the threat of incarceration for false claims and professional misconduct by legal 'professionals' would also reduce costs & wasted time for the genuine claimants also.
     
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  14. GreyWing

    GreyWing Nobody

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    Trouble is mate it's their friends that would prosecute them, so they don't often do it because they know they have skeletons in their own closets. Then of course half of the Cabinet are lawyers and Barristers. David Cameron's own brother is a Barrister scooping up legal aide.

    As far as I know, it is a crime(s) already. Attempting to pervert the course of Justice and obtaining a pecuniary advantage. I don't think anyone in the story in @Caversham 's link got prosecuted.

    At the other end of the scale, people are now pleading guilty to crimes they haven't committed because they can't risk paying huge court costs if they are found guilty after pleading innocent. Although I think so many Magistrates resigned over that, they changed it recently.

    One of my friends is a lawyer and they do laugh at it all. They often get a young guy come in, lets say caught shop lifiting at Asda. He wants to admit it, but the legal aid lawyer will talk them out of it and convince them not to. They spend months getting ready for a Magistrates trial, at the last minute the lawyer advises them to plead guilty due to the evidence.

    Of course after running up months of legal aid :D
     
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  15. Chelonian

    Chelonian Well-Known Member

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    I agree entirely but the absurdity is that it would probably add another tier of lawyers, this time to defend their own colleagues, almost certainly at public expense.

    Meanwhile, Legal Aid has been withdrawn for almost all Family Law cases in England and Wales which ultimately disadvantages the innocent parties: children. Another topic, but one which grinds my gears.

    I much prefer the company of horses and sheep to that of lawyers and particularly their managers.
     
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  16. Caversham

    Caversham Former RM Commando

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    Lawyers and politicians. Crooks with suits on!

    Alan
     
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  17. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    Last I heard, the Royal Engineers are being investigated for actions against some Zulu's, SIB were looking for witnesses to come forward.


    Wait is it 1 Zulu, 2 Zulu?
    Or 1 Zulu, 2 Zulu's?



    The whole situation and article stinks. Disgusting. it's a wonder why anyone bothers to join up these days, constantly looking over your shoulder and second guessing. Which can get you killed, or worse, your mates killed.

    Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6....unless you're bloody UK Military Personnel. In which case your guilty until proven innocent, evidence withheld, evidence made up, Officers looking for their spine in the caviar dish, chain of command taking a dump on you and ultimately left to rot.
    And anything you may have said, would have been written in pencil, to be scrubbed out, and re-written against you.



    Ah the good old British Establishment, just blame the lads and not the oxygen theiving spineless *text deleted* that sent them in.
     
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  18. Fibonarchie

    Fibonarchie Active Member

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    Too bloody right. But when you're up there, the air's so blimming thin you cant see more than the mound of cash you're sitting so what's a few grunts going down to you? Revolting. Seems the only people to pick on are the NHS, the police, the fire service and the forces-the people who make Britain liveable from the Hebrides to Belfast, to the black mountains, to dover. Media, politician and other odious little bleeps ought to have a month with no pay and maybe, just maybe there would be a few decent decisions made.
    Fibo
     
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  19. ZeroNoxx

    ZeroNoxx Member

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    Bravo sir! You get a 9 out of 10, you missed pointing out the large number of people who are all too happy to make the assumption that all these cases MUST be guilty and will, without even looking into it, start loudly proclaiming how terrible it is that "so many of our evil, warmongering, imperialistic government's pet killers and psychopaths are allowed to get away with such heinous crimes". The nature of these crimes is of course never truly discussed but they are obviously completely inhumane and any "not guilty" verdict is a cover up by fascists, racists and military dictators. After this initial stage of course will come the "And what else did they probably get away with?" which then leads to wild theories being brewed up then repeated as if they were fact and the cycle continues.

    The worst part is that someone who has no particular knowledge of the forces could read one of these articles and ask people about it and end up being fed this mish-mash of highly distorted information, conspiracy theories and outright *text deleted* as if it were gospel and never think to question it. Then they talk to their friends about it and regurgitate what they've heard and it spreads and spreads. Maybe one of their friends is considering joining the forces and hears all this and starts to question whether it's worth joining if they're going to be *text deleted*ed over, or maybe they even get ostracised from their social circle because they argue with the rhetoric and therefore must be one of those "warmongers" who is joining up just so they can also be a criminal with a free pass.

    For those of you wondering: yes, I'm talking from personal experience. Myself and a few lads I know who've wanted to join various branches have all been on the receiving end. It's alarming how many people will decide on a presumption of guilt without evidence just because that's the trendy thing to believe. And when you look at the media it honestly seems to pander to this mindset. Well, the public need someone to be *text deleted* at I guess and politicians can't be dealing with that negative public opinion so... the military is an easy target, I mean they're all trained to be tough right? They can take it!
     
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  20. Fibonarchie

    Fibonarchie Active Member

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    Interesting isn't it how they are regarded as heroes while they're their and its the big bad politicians who send them their that are in the wrong but as soon as theirs a story to be had and gossip to be passed around, the tables ate flipped. They'll be telling us Blair was a nice, respectable chap who never made a wrong decision soon!
     

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