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Brexit Fork from Things that annoy you. Your rants

Discussion in 'Jollies Bar' started by Atlas10, Mar 20, 2019.

  1. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    As much as i think the referendum should be adhered to, its important to note that it was made clear that the vote was for the government to take action, but was not legally binding and not the same as say an election majority vote.

    A referendum is just asking a question, It was a cocky gauge of public opinion by a government who didn't think it would pass. Now, absolutely the government should listen to it because a majority of the public want something so pretty obvious it should go that way. But still a big difference in terms of her argument for democracy i feel. Especially when everyone had a different vision for what Brexit meant and no finer details were worked out. Like if everyone had a deal agreed and then the government sacked it off - that's ignoring a democratic vote.

    Technically this referendum CAN be ignored, but not delivering anything when they say they will.... Theresa May and honestly everyone in Westminster are a whole other level of incompetent.... not sure i'd even give them the notoriety of saying they're trying to be anti-democratic and oppress the country by maintaining a death grip on their vision for the future; I just think they're absolutely shite at their job and embarrassing us.
     
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  2. Parhelia

    Parhelia Member

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    So what was different about the referendum that got us into the EU?

    ^ That's not me having a go/being snarky or asking you in particular - I want to make that clear. I'm just confused about why it's been so difficult and controversial to leave, but didn't seem to be so difficult to join.
    (The referendum to join happened about 20 years before I was born and I haven't read much on how that vote went down, so apologies if I'm being ignorant as to how it was handled back then.)

    I'm just annoyed with how slow and ridiculous this process has been, and how embarrassing this is on an international level.
     
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  3. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    Not legally binding? Are you on crack, it’s the will of the people. The government works for us, NOT the other way around.
    I didn’t put an X next Von Rompoy, or Juncker, or Tusk. Nor did I vote, see or support their parties. Because they were APPOINTED in, by an UNDEMOCRATIC system. It’s power without accountability. The last time we had this power without accountability voted in, it was the 1930s.



    Britain already tried to take action. The UK went to the EU and asked for reform several times. The EU refused.
    The British people have not voted for this undemocratic, corrupt, abhorrent dogs abortion of a “political” system.
    Poland wants reform, Hungary wants reform, both are facing sanctions for violating the immigration policy.

    France wants out, The Dutch want out, the Germany people want out, the Greeks want out, the Spanish want out.

    The EU is a corrupt house of cards waiting to come tumbling down.
    This government is far more sane, competent and [heres the kicker] ACCOUNTABLE. They answer to the people.


    Screw the delay, NO DEAL. Out. That’s what the people want. If you want to remain in the EU, please leave now and let us get back to rebuilding this country.


    If you think the political system is so crap, why wouldn’t you want to remove a layer of bureaucracy so we can make an actual attempt to correct the corrupt system we have. Rather than support an undemocratic system that ignores the people and panders to rich globalist elite intent on destroying each countries nationality.

    Ironically it’s not the first referendum to be ignored and it won’t be the last, they go on regardless.


    I am not European.
     
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  4. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    Don’t bother. As someone that used to spoil my ballot as a political protest, the bias media don’t count ballots as a protest or an accident.
    It’s all counted as a spoilt and forgotten about.


    If we had another box that said “None of the Above.” And it was counted, that would be interesting.
     
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  5. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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  6. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    No, its a good question.

    When we joined, it was post ww2 and our economy was hugely declining in comparison to growing Europe. So we had a motivation to join up to what it was and to move quickly. But it was actually pretty difficult to join, nothing happens instantly and politics is notoriously slow. But its easier to join into something that was growing - we joined taking the total membership to 9 so there wasn't so much built up and we helped it grow slowly - than to leave something that hugely dominates the world and how we run our country right now. The EU is ingrained in everything we do as a government and as an economy, compared to the slow built up to this moment, walking away from the finished product is much harder.


    Its also much easier to create deals than to walk away from ones already signed. The UK has agreed over the years to pay towards certain things within the EU, if we walk away from those obligations now, whats it going to look like to other countries we try to make deals with that we might not live up to our end of the bargain and simply walk out from the deal if we change our mind later kind of thing.

    Also, the EU has certain customs markets for goods and products that are set at different rates for inside and outside the EU. Once we are out, all our manufacturing has to be looked at, all our produce might be different, all the tarriffs in place for other countries now come to us - so prices may go up in stores (i.e, our potatoes might be grown differently in terms of quality or what we use to help the, than italys oranges, so do other countries sell to us/buy ours? or do they continue without us and shop in France etc instead). Prices may increase, so those oranges from Italy now come at a higher cost, and we cant just sell our potatoes without paying an entrance fee into the EU markets etc. Companies that operate both in the UK and the EU now have to see if they are going to split their operations over various manufacturing levels that raise prices and lower market availability (car doors made in UK, engine made in Germany, maybe cant be connected to same car without someone checking their product standards etc) - note I'm making all this product problem up and the market is much more complicated and maybe not as petty as that, but you get the idea of what they have to agree - the finer details that noone really talks about. But the tariffs will apply to us as a foreign international country, and not as a local neighbor market. Some headquarters in the UK wont really help if much of your manufacturing occurs in the EU - the government doesn't want to lose those companies, so must fight to get similar trade laws that it is cost effective to stick around in the UK rather than move everything back to the EU

    Laws: We follow some EU laws, so if we leave do the government keep some? do they just get rid of them? then what goes in their place? do we just have big gaps in our written laws now or do we fill them with no things? Do the government just invent laws now? There are laws now that weren't around back before we are in so we cant just revert. It takes time to work out which kind of legal structure we keep.

    The border is a huge one. Ireland will never accept a hard border and will risk the Good Friday agreement that stopped (mostly) the troubles. The Good Friday agreement specifically says that there will be no border. But the Republic of Ireland will remain in the EU, so how do we stop those EU nationals that are allowed in the Republic freely from just walking into Northern Ireland? how do we stop them just sauntering over to the mainland after?

    Honestly, no deal has become my preferred option because most people are scared it means no deal ever - they look to economists who say no deal is bad because they cant predict what they dont know in terms of deals, so obviously it looks bad. You dont want to make an economy based on gambling - which is what no deal technically is because there is no information etc. BUT the world is run on money. Both the UK and the EU want to earn, and want to spend. I think we should just say ok we are out, then start making deals individually - there is no way that we wouldnt be making trade deals, we are the sixth largest economy in the world. Its predicted to be bad because they dont know. The only way we can know is by doing it - and we are losing huge valuations through the constant delays that i think the instant hit of a no deal will recover with new trade deals faster than the slow death. I also think we can say we are not paying our financial obligations because we gave them an offer that was suitable to pay but they refused to cooperate on other aspects so we had to leave without.

    The border is the huge one that i dont know they are going to get around without an inevitable increase in customs control - maybe that just has to happen on mainland and hope it doesn't upset the balance over there.

    Theres also so much more that I'm not paying attention to. I'm not an expert on the subject or anything, and i'm not saying these things couldn't be worked out by people who are supposed to be doing their jobs. There is little excuse for how little progress has been made. I'm just trying to describe some details you might not think about; it seems easy to just walk away from the big things like listening to Brussels but the finer details, and the WHAT NOW?, nobody really has an answer for. Clearly not Theresa May.

    Bit long but i like ranting!
     
  7. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    OK get off your soapbox lad, the EU is not Nazi Germany and i'm not a staunch remainer i'm just saying it literally isn't legally binding.

    Will of the people doesn't always translate into laws. Check the percentages on assisted suicide, on legalization of marijuana, even the death penalty had strong support until really recently, so the will of the people doesn't always translate to law. (Even though it absolutely should)

    Britain has had huge influence on the EU and got veto power, our own currency, a budget rebate of 66%, and we can pick which police/legal laws we dont want to follow, so dont act like we've had our backs against the wall forever and only now struggled to get free as if ruled by fascist Nazis.
    Some of France, some of the Dutch, some of the Germans, some of the Spanish want out, you're so keen to talk about democratic accountability, lets let their countries decide with a majority. Once again, not a staunch remainer, but you're just shouting as if we've had it absolutely terrible and have fought a war to be free.

    This government is more competent? Accountable? To Whom?
    We have literally just failed to complete a 2 year period of negotiations. May has failed with 3 votes, has faced a vote of confidence both within and outside her party,has lost the ability to hold a vote on a No deal, has lost the ability to hold a new on her deal. SO we start again with nothing to show for 2 years work - wow, competent.

    If i want to remain in the EU, leave the country. So 49% of the population
    has no voice whatsoever now on what the country looks like post- Brexit? - "the last time we had this power without accountability voted in, it was the 1930s."

    If you read my other posts, you would have seen i said i wanted a No deal. But its good you got to get that off your chest and rage against the machine.
     
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  8. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    Not a soap box.

    https://www.royalmarines.uk/threads/eu-vote.115650/page-5#post-662587

    And the EU is the most successful rebranding in history.
    Hitler didn’t make Nazi germany overnight, it was a gradual creep of powers and underhand moves until the time was right.
    Gradually Strip away the people’s ability To challenge, appeal, protest and refuse, and you end up with a subservient population under rule they can’t change.


    Laws are a product of the society. They don’t dictate it. The democratic will of the people dictate a society.

    Yea we only managed to dodge the bullet because we had politicians that stood against it and didn’t blindly follow. Imagine the dogs abortion we would be in if we did.
    The EU even admitted they are surprised the Euro lastest so long.
    Greenland managed to leave, I refer you to:
    “This resulted in Greenland negotiating the terms of the its separation from the EU, resulting in the Greenland Treaty, and Greenland's leaving the communities in 1985.”

    And yea, give them their own referendums! The reason the EU isn’t letting us go is because they need us and they know if we leave successfully, then everyone else goes too and the house of cards comes down.


    It’s a small step towards it. You are failing to see the bigger picture. Undermining national and democratic rule.

    “We have 650 Seats in the House of Commons for 66.1 Million people.
    The EU has 751 seats for 512.6 Millionpeople.

    It’s hard enough for your voice to be heard in our system, you are drowned out and never heard in the EU, unless it fits their agenda.“

    That’s unaccounted power.

    Yea May and the politicians have been useless because they want their EU cash cow when they leave. Again brings it back to why not remove a layer of bureaucratic power so we can sort out own corrupt government out.
    Yea they should leave, instead of dragging their heels and making it worse for the rest of us.
    Note it’s not forcing them to leave, then it becomes unaccountable power.


    Yea it’s rage, because I am sick to death of this bloody crap taking over and constantly having it rammed down my throatand being told I didn’t know what I voted for, or having students with no clue gobbing off, just get us out and get it sorted.

    Bloody sick of it.
     
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  9. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    @ThreadpigeonsAlpha i agree with pretty much most of what you say, my point was only that her argument about the vote was wrong.

    Got to disagree on the Hitler analogy though. Just think you do those a disservice by suggesting we are going through anywhere near what they did. We had power to install change, have a say, and veto any major encroachments to our country whilst also remaining largely sovereign on the big decisions. Yes, some of it is undemocratic and other things just outright shambolic, but we aren't survivors etc. we're just fed up.

    Greenland isn't a great analogy to be honest, because they weren't in long enough to have to negotiate everything we have to, weren't so large and ingrained in the EU, weren't so codependent, weren't home to huge multinational corporations that we have to try retain, and weren't home to the financial capital of the world that is at risk. Even after all that, Greenland still is technically part of the EU (an OCT, and are citizens of the EU) and are within most tariffs and get funds from the EU, something much different to the hard Brexit most are advocating for. It is possible and we should do it, but looking at examples like this for comparisons doesn't accurately demonstrate what we hope to do.

    Absolutely agree on removing the bureaucratic layer - fix this mess then start to deal with the rot at home!

    Honestly my biggest issue so far is why isn't an advocate for Brexit leading the way? Put them front and center on an issue they believe in and watch the progress compared to this. That fails, walk away with nothing for either sides - boom, job done. Now start the rebuild with nothing - and thus literally EVERYTHING- on the table. Fix the big issue- the border in Ireland, but why does that need a timeline to be completed with the rest of it all? I don't understand why the whole process was put on a timer and everything was talked about in one big deal its just absolutely ridiculous and no wonder it's impossible.

    Brussels has done exactly what you expect them to do so honestly i cannot be that mad at them, they're going into negotiations trying to bleed us dry because it makes them look strong and they are getting pretty much everything they want. The problem is us dancing to their tune... Stealing a line from Peaky Blinders but "you don't parley when you're on the back foot." The free market will sort things out, and there is no way deals aren't made. Just walk away like you say, or at least make it known that we will do that and we aren't being unreasonable, then watch how their strong arming has actual consequences instead of May running back and forth with a beggars cup.

    I didn't vote for leave. But i don't want anything less than a complete withdrawal from the EU and i'm just playing devils advocate for most of this discussion because it's interesting.
     
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  10. Parhelia

    Parhelia Member

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    Thank you for taking the time to write this! It reminds me of when my Dad has tried to explain all of this at the dinner table :)

    I'm certainly not envious of the people who have to try and sort out all the things that need reworking because of Brexit. It sort of irritates me though finding out the extent to which we have been bound to what was once supposed to simply be a trade block.

    Further to this entire debacle:
    About two years ago when I was at uni we had a careers event in which someone from the civil service who worked in a particular department came in to speak about her role. In addition to making a few inappropriate comments that would have been deemed problematic had she not said them about a particular group that it's apparently okay to insult, she answered a question about how her department had been affected by the Brexit vote which was quite revealing.
    Her response was that since the Government's official stance was on remaining within the EU, they (her department) did nothing to prepare for the possibility that the vote would go the other way. It was only on the morning that the results came out that she said that her department begrudgingly went "Oh, I guess we're going to have to plan for this now, then".
    I was quite incredulous when she said that. I understand the Government having an official stance on something and hoping that nothing was going to have to change, but assuming the country would vote remain and therefore not doing any contingency planning in case it didn't, really shocked me.
     
  11. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/...k.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar


    “Diversity”

    “Reflect society”

    Surely it should be the best that applies for the job regardless...

    Has anyone actually thought that maybe there’s not that many women or people from ethnic backgrounds that want to join? I know a few people who’s family looks down on it as a successful career.

    It’s not that hard a job anyway, my firefighter mates just seem to eat toast, gob off and squirt water, I can do that with my garden house.
     
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  12. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    I will give a detailed reply to this later.

    But I will say I am not comparing this to Nazi Germany, merely the political implications.


    Oh and 1984 wasn’t an instruction booklet.


    Welcome to Airstrip One, Comrade.
     
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  13. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    Its not that - the numbers are fine. It's just that 46% of the current firefighters 'identify' as a firetruck so unfortunately they need to recruit more operators.
     
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  14. Chelonian

    Chelonian Moderator

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    My solution:
    The diversity target can easily be achieved. It's likely that the Fire Service has a diversity budget. If that budget was divided and offered as a one-off cash bonus to all serving fire fighters who agree to self-identify as either women, ethnic minorities or other eligible categories I reckon that the target could be exceeded in days.
     
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  15. Chelonian

    Chelonian Moderator

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    Theresa May is determined to deliver the referendum result: that the UK leaves the European Union on Friday 29 March 2019. Hopefully that will still happen. Arguably she is fighting the entire UK political establishment to deliver what the (slim) majority voted for. She is doing this despite personally voting to remain in the EU.

    Nobody voted for a 'deal' but the notion that the likes of the Moggster, Boris or Corbyn could have negotiated a better one is laughable.

    Will there be economic pain associated with a 'no deal' departure? Certainly. Political instability in NI? Probably. Massive disruption to foreign holiday plans? Possibly.
    But that's democracy; it's seldom cuddly. We're adults and we live with the consequences.

    As stated before, I voted 'remain' but the theft of this referendum result would be potentially more damaging than a 'no deal' departure.
     
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  16. rkec

    rkec New Member

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    Maybe that is true because I have no faith in any of them, but I guarantee you one bloke would have got a better deal - Trump. Look at how much he smashed them on tariffs on EU cars. He had them by the balls and didn't let go until they started to submit.

    Everyone with half a brain knows full well that the German's run the EU, the Car industry run Germany. Smash the car industry and watch the fruit from the rest of the tree fall. The strategy was and is so simply.

    Theresa May never even tried and that is the most embarrassing thing for our country, she never even tried.
     
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  17. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    We wont leave by March 29th she's already asking for an extension of a couple of months. We voted against a no deal and voted against her deal, i don't see how any possible new deal will be crafted and voted on within the week.

    Also i don't think they would have secured a better deal. I want a brexiteer to be front and center because its their 'vision' and its so easy to continuously attack May and vote against anything she brings, yet they provide no help whatsoever and when they challenge her leadership they then point to someone else to lead not themselves. Its a way of staying in the spotlight without actually having to do anything. I want someone who really wanted and campaigned on Brexit to lead because it makes sense. May didnt want it, so how can she continuously craft a vision for a good deal she inherently doesn't believe in. And Corbyn's position is just laughable and fluctuates, that man is a joke.

    Another big problem is she keeps bringing the vote back to MPs instead of the general public. MPs who score major political points by attacking her and keep the pressure on her stumbling administration and i think after the snap election she held the majority of MPs don't actually want Brexit and aren't accurately representing those who do.

    That being said, Theresa May knew what she was getting herself into when she waited for the leadership contest, and has continuously slipped up throughout the entire process so i have little sympathy for her and how she has handled it. Her back was against the wall and her party is stabbing her in the back, but she made her own bed with the dreadful loss of an easy majority and her poor campaigning. She just isn't a good PM i feel.

    Also, we're already in economic pain. The uncertainty is dragging us down compared to any sort of building we could be doing. I too was against it, but now i honestly think there wont be an agreeable package deal - either the MPs or EU will reject it. It's got to be no deal for any progress to be made, so why not just get it over with and say we're out then negotiate individual nuances that probably require less oversight and approval - trade deals etc don't have to continuously come back to Lords/MPs.

    Of course they've now all voted against a 'NO DEAL' possibility so i really don't understand what they're looking for and expecting to get - except of course to reverse the decision of Brexit which will be quite the travesty and extremely damaging indeed.
     
  18. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    This is just not true. Trump didn't smash anyone with Tariffs except the American public. A huge amount of imports for car manufacturing into the US went to their automobile industry to complete their cars - any tariffs just made it more expensive for them to create cars and would lose their companies money and cost jobs at home. Also, all it was predicted to do was raise the price of cars for each consumer. He signed no trade deals with the EU and they didn't submit to anything except to impose tariffs of their own. He also didn't go through with the car tariffs because he knew it would just hurt them.Plus, his trade deficit just got reported to have GROWN by $119 billion and he has added 2 trillion to the national debt, so tell me how he has crafted better deals.

    For the UK, how can Theresa May threaten the EU car industry when we rely so heavily on their car plants to remain for jobs... And what possible market dominance do we have that she can threaten to pull or tariff? If we threaten their car industry, they'll threaten ours, which accounts for 54% of all our exports in cars. We don't have the same economic might as the US to even dent the EU economy compared to what they can do to us, so we can hardly strong arm them with trade. I think it would've been more embarrassing to go down that route.
     
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  19. Chelonian

    Chelonian Moderator

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    Errm... I'm unsure of the relevance of Mr Trump to this matter. Besides, he didn't even write 'The Art of the Deal' himself.

    If the EU agrees to grant that humiliating request it might happen but it's not the UK's decision to make. The nuclear option would be for the UK to unilaterally revoke Article 50 and then reinstate it which would zero the clock for another countdown. But how mad would that be?
    As things stand, the UK leaves the EU on Friday 29 March.

    Brexit delayed will be Brexit cancelled and the UK will remain in the EU. Which is the outcome I voted for. But achieving it this way is a disgrace and will destroy my confidence in the UK's political system.
     
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  20. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    Do you have any idea what that looks like? The MPs voted for a no 'no deal' exit but will it just happen regardless if the EU rejects an extension?