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Brexit Fork from Things that annoy you. Your rants

Discussion in 'Jollies Bar' started by Atlas10, Mar 20, 2019.

  1. Chelonian

    Chelonian Moderator

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    Much parliamentary time was set aside on Thursday afternoon to legally confirm the UK not leaving the EU on Friday as per Article 50. I don't know how that worked out though.

    On a more general note, I listened to Ken Clarke interviewed on BBC World Service Radio's Hard Talk programme. His opinions about election manifestos were enlightening. Basically they are legally meaningless other than being a statement of intent. Clarke didn't even have sight of the Conservative manifesto for the last election until the campaign was almost finished.

    I reckon that there is a good argument for such manifestos and party political broadcasts to be accompanied by warnings in the same way that tobacco products carry health warnings.
    Political manifesto promises carry as much legal credibility as the promises of a Thai hostess to "Love you long time" according to a friend of mine.
     
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  2. rkec

    rkec New Member

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    I think most people attach the same importance to manifesto's that they do to toilet paper. I think people took these a little more seriously because of their intent on a massive issue. I still doubt they'd carry much legal weight and it should at least be punishable by the advertising standards agency chaps if it strays significantly.

    The arguments on this case is that the EU Withdrawal Act Bill 2018 clearly states that an extension needs to be approved in both Houses. Also that it needs Royal Ascent. Royal Perogative would no longer cover such an Extension after the precendents set out in the Gina Miller case.

    As far as I know, it never went through the House of Lords, it didn't get Royal Ascent. Former Attorney General Bill Cash MP has repeatedly asked the PM - have you had legal advice on this. Several times the PM has refused to answer it. Which, probably means yes but it wasn't the advice she wanted.

    My own view is that we are already out and she knows it.
     
  3. Chelonian

    Chelonian Moderator

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    But sadly most people don't; they're not stupid but they are detached from political engagement.
    A Hungarian woman of my (errm...) acquaintance was almost painfully politically aware of politics appropriate to her home town. Aside from NI it seems that few in the UK even care.

    Arguably the electorate makes voting decisions based on published manifesto promises because they are one of the few things upon which a voting decision can be made. For sure there is a vague understanding that all politicians lie to us. But this is forgotten in the (approximate) five-year cycle of elections.

    Our model of representative democracy would disintegrate if political promises (eg. "Brexit means Brexit") were legally enforced.

    I'm amazed that the UK continues to function while distracted by this nonsense. In a weird way it's a compliment to the nation's resilience but personally I've lost confidence in the whole political structure.

    To summarise... as much as I have railed against the political establishment the fault and the opportunity for change lies with us, the electorate.
     
  4. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    The electorate makes voting decisions based on headline news and soundbites. You ask any one person who's mouthing off and complaining about something to explain their reasoning and the majority cant expand further than the 128 characters or stupidly misleading click bait headline that they read from someone else sharing it on social media.

    There is very little substance in most arguments these days, and our reasoning is simply compounded with biased media and ignorant yet hysterical media mobs who don't do their own thinking.

    Leave Campaign saw lots of it. Now, the second referendum campaign is seeing lots of it.

    Businesses are complaining about the uncertainty of Brexit, but i'll tell you one avenue that won't be complaining until things start settling down - The media.
     
  5. rkec

    rkec New Member

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    I'd say yes and no. Unfortunately arguments about this democracy stuff has been around since the Greeks cracked on with it. Who to allow to vote.

    I don't know if our country will survive democracy. It leads to over promising and under delivering. Extend and pretend until the country is screwed. Nobody is willing to face the real issues in a sustainable way.

    Who here thinks the House of Lords has improved since they abolished hereditary peers? May as well just go back to absolute rule by the Monarchy.
     
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  6. Chelonian

    Chelonian Moderator

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    In my neck of the woods the harsh reality of the potential impact on the fishing industry is becoming apparent.

    To be honest, at my age (almost) fifty-nine :eek: I don't have a personal investment. I've already told my under-twelve-years-old tribe that the future is their problem and not mine.
    They momentarily glanced up politely from their screens.

    Youngsters should be throwing rocks through the windows of the Town Hall. Don't rely on we old fuddsters to do it for you. The world is your lobster not ours.
     
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  7. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    The slow economic decline because of that word has been doing my head in. "Potential" is all i'v heard for two years! Really wish we would just pick a direction and go, this treading water is exhausting us more than any redevelopment would once it started to pick up wind. I hate it.

    Us youngsters have started to care. Now to get us informed and replace the deadbeats at the top and maybe we can get something done....... Or we can continue complaining how things aren't fair and how someone was mean to us and life is too hard and continue to not vote and shout down any speech that upsets us and return to our safe screens.......
     
  8. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    .
     
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  9. Chelonian

    Chelonian Moderator

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    But those deadbeats were once young themselves. The political establishment sucks in people with radical principles and bleeds them dry.
     
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  10. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    Don't think Theresa May's ever been young a day in her life :D

    Age doesn't bother me so much with those in power. It's their complete detachment from the reality most of us face that does. This current club all grew up together and with their current performances i think they're just thinking they're all back at some useless club in oxbridge having a laugh and being naughty running through cornfields.

    We've got them, or we've got Jeremy Corbyn..... wow.

    I just want a down to earth straight talker with a little intelligence that looks everyone in the eye and says.... "stuffs upside down. Lets just get on with it.... " ..."also if i answered the question on naughtiest thing i'v ever done, i'd lose my job, my family, and probably my freedom. :D" (Wishful thinking to say the least i know i know.)

    But yes, it's always interesting to see how long the bright idealists last before Westminster churns them into the classic establishment mould.
     
  11. prubdag

    prubdag Member

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    I don't see a problem with a second referendum/people's vote. We have general elections every few years...

    Can you imagine if we'd said to the public after 2010 when the Lib Dems broke manifesto promises and went into coalition, that you can't vote them out or change your mind again?

    The Leave campaign overspent, broke the law and told outright lies to voters, who then made their decisions based on those lies. If an MP had broken the law like that in a general election, they'd have been tried, sentenced and a by-election held in their constituency.

    The government has just blamed the EU for the past 20 years whenever it's been politically convenient for them, even when it's not the EUs fault.
     
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  12. rkec

    rkec New Member

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    Cool, so if remain wins we wait 3 years and have another referendum?
     
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  13. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    No. Just no.

    A general election is our political process, that we vote on, we have had democracy on and the people has had a say on.

    The people do not have a say with the EU. We cannot challenge, change, appeal nor vote on this corrupt, broken, elitist facade of democracy.

    Political parties break manifesto promises all the time, but they are more accountable under our system, the EU is power without accountability.
    How can we seek to fix our own broken and corrupt system, by having another forced onto us that we cannot change, from another country ran by “politicians” we didn’t vote in, which undermines the very democratic voice of the people of this Nation.

    The leave campaign did no such thing. And if you do some much as a little bit of research you will see how corrupt, how broken and just how much money is being raped from the people of Europe to uphold this abhorrent elitist system.
    STOP with this “leave voters were confused and stupid and misled”.
    I knew EXACTLY what I was voting for and I have been hoping to leave the EU for over 10 years.

    If you can’t see that, then you are part of the problem, and you are the reason leave voters continue to turn their backs on the main stream media, and this joke of a political system.

    The fact of the matter is, the EU doesn’t give a flying fcuk about you or anyone except the rich elite. The UK and other countries have approached the EU for reform, several times and it’s been rejected. The EU doesn’t care about the will of the people, it doesn’t care about democracy and accountability.

    I didn’t vote for them, I didn’t vote for anyone in there, and I can’t vote them out.

    I do not recognise it as a political establishment. And I refuse to accept it as having any power over myself or the Country that I have served for and continue to serve for.

    It’s disgusting, abhorrent and an absolute disgrace and a shambles.


    Right wing politics is rampant and growing throughout the EU.
    Poland and Hungary both face sanctions for taking back power from the EU and to the people.
    France, Holland, Greece and others want a referendum.

    The EU is bricking it because they need us, that’s why they pay off the media, they bring out their puppets to spout their utter drivel to try and get us to change and to manipulate the masses. They know the people don’t want it. But they want to silence them.

    The Government should fear its people, not the other way around.

    The house of cards will fall.
     
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  14. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    And the very fact that this disgusting waste of oxygen and sack of skin wants in the EU speaks volumes.

    Funny that, power without accountability, keep the EU and get a nice little rich job within them.
    While the people of the UK face numerous problems and struggle to make a living.

    And people say leave voters are stupid....
     
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  15. westy

    westy Well-Known Member

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    Tell you what, if we ended up with an EU Army/Navy/RAF, I’d be out before I even join, even if that meant going AWOL!!

    I’d like to think that joining the UKs armed forces is to protect our county and live up to the standards we have set over hundreds of years!!

    What is it Julian Thompson said after that Falklands:

    “We’d die for Queen and country, but we didn’t contemplate dying for a Politician”
     
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  16. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    you'd like to go through this every few years?!

    It's not democratic if you brute force an issue. Why have the vote at all if you are only going to accept the outcome you want? A second referendum completely disregards the first. Why would the people who voted to Leave even vote in the second one? The third?

    Eventually, you hold enough referendums you'll get the outcome you want. And democracy falls.
     
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  17. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    "who did you speak for today"

    Whoever pays him the most.
     
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  18. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    One thing I keep seeing, and it might just be anecdotal, but I repeatedly see people say they voted remain but would vote leave after the way it’s been handled and the way the EU has responded to it.

    Could a second referendum actually reveal a bigger leave vote?!
     
  19. Chelonian

    Chelonian Moderator

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    I'm in this category. But I have no objection to the EU's line on BREXIT. The EU is merely applying the rules and looking after its own interests so I won't weep about the 'unfairness' of it.

    As previously stated several times since the referendum I voted Remain for what I (still) consider to be very sound reasons.

    I despise Tony Blair is because he promised an EU referendum in a pre-election manifesto but it is now abundantly plain that he never had the slightest intention of delivering it.
    From memory he said something along the lines of "... a referendum when the time is right." Which basically meant "...when Hell freezes over."

    I also despise David Cameron who, buoyed by victory in the Scotland referendum, attempted to settle the Tories' turmoil over Europe by allowing a referendum that he was not constitutionally obliged to launch. Cameron didn't launch the referendum because of any deeper interest in the will of the people.

    There was a vague notion that the referendum was only advisory. Constitutionally and legally the will of parliament will always trump the will of the people in the UK. It's how representative democracy works. But we were explicitly promised that the will of the people would be respected. And no matter how the political establishment use weasel words it is plain that we were deceived about the validity of the referendum.

    To add insult to injury the political parties in opposition have obstructed the BREXIT process for what are obviously reasons of political gain for themselves.
    I'm astonished that Jeremy Corbyn walked out of a joint party meeting at 10 Downing Street recently because he objected to the presence of several defectors from his own party. This from a man who in the past has happily met with a vile selection of reptiles including some from IRA-Sinn Féin. -banghead-

    We all know that political promises and manifestos are shallow but this time the lies were blatant. My confidence in the political process has been so undermined by the activities of our major parties that I'm uncertain if I will ever bother to vote again.

    One of the biggest political misjudgments about the referendum was the size of the 'protest vote'. People who didn't have a strong view one way or another but who were determined to give the political class a good kicking. Well, they've got an even better reason now!

    [Takes a deep breath and assumes a calming, lotus yoga position.]
     
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  20. Atlas10

    Atlas10 Member

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    Unfortunately i think not. The majority was only 1.7 million people - it was ridiculously close and thats why the remainers have such a large voice. This number is so fragile that another referendum would tip it i think.

    Mainly because its been such a shitshow i think people are so fed up they would reverse the decision because they cant face more turmoil or others saying what next.

    Also, 28% of eligible votes didn't vote. I think a large part of that electorate didn't because it wasn't seen as a big deal and were quite cocky it wouldn't pass - this time they would show up. Polls were released that showed most of the sample sizes who didn't vote would turn the tide towards a remain decision if a second referendum was allowed. Obviously there's no way to really know if they'd show up again or if that number is accurate, but its data and it has to be tipped in their favor.

    Then you've got to count the protest voters who wouldn't entertain the notion of a second referendum. Absolutely within their right to feel like that, but make no mistake that the other side will show up. And, if it turned out remain, those who voted would not listen to their protests. Again, the majority was so small that this would be a huge factor. How to motivate those who've already won to redo the race?!

    Youve also got more young people crossing the voting line. 73% of 18-24 year olds voted remain, and with more crossing that line since the vote (compared to those who've been able to vote for years) that majority would probably increase. Especially with the negative news coverage and scare mongering. (a poll the bbc put out said 82% of that age group now would be remain) Basically the age group has just recruited more compared to any other.

    not everyone who didnt show up etc would vote remain but i think theres been so much complaining that people would be scared back into their place.

    Of course you'd also get many who would change sides to try retain some SENSE of democracy in this circus but i think not enough people are as wise and decent, and honorable and proud and sensible as the people on this thread ;)

    I voted remain. And it would feel like such a kick in the teeth if that was the result.

    Also the MPs on both sides who seem to think their voice is bigger than those they are supposed to represent! There are some who are in huge leave districts that are not voting in that pattern whatsoever. They are obstructing the real voice of who they represent and obviously think they know better. A condescending shambles.