Changes afoot: When to join as an Officer?

Ninja_Stoker

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This has been posted on another thread but sufficiently important to warrant it's own thread:

Future Potential Royal Marines Officers,should be aware that from next year (2013) a degree will no longer provide a financial or promotional advantage. Those who join this year or those already serving will be unaffected.

What does it mean? Non-grads commencing YO training in 2013 will start on a significantly higher income, the same as the 2013 graduate YO entry rate.

Be aware, that harmonising YO starting pay will mean those joining as an Officer in 2013 onwards will be paid at a mid point pay increment level - probably just over halfway between the two current YO starting rates of pay.

Historically Officers used to be paid different wages based on their age when they joined. Obviously this could be viewed as age-discriminatory, so starting pay was based on educational qualifications, for this next year non-graduate entry Officers pay increases to ?16,073 (Other Ranks increase to ?14,145). All pay grades over ?21,000 remain frozen so graduate entry Officers remain on ?29,587 this year with seniority and incremental pay increases unchanged. .

The latest Armed Forces Pay Review Body 2012 Report can now be downloaded: http://www.official-documents.gov.uk.../8299/8299.pdf

Type: AFPRB 2012 in 'search' if it won't download: http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm82/8299/8299.asp

Source: http://www.navy-net.co.uk/upo/65024-armed-forces-pay-review-body-report-2012-a.html#post1076690
 

Harvs

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Well that's interesting. Cheers for the heads up Ninja!
 

Utopia

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Does this affect applicants applying currently who are going for 2013 batch? Supposedly I'm going for 2012 batch but I really don't see that happening any more...

I.e. Would a graduate applicant starting 2013 be on ?29k or would it be the mid-point figure?
 

v3locity

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that New Entrants? Rates of Pay for direct entrant graduate and non-graduate Officers be harmonised at OF1 Increment Level 5 (?24,615) from 1 April 2013;
Take from http://www.official-documents.gov.uk.../8299/8299.pdf page ix, page 13 & page 17.

There is a slight discrepancy, in the Appendix a different amount is eluded to. I am going to assume that the above is the correct amount.

Obviously graduates are going to be incredibly disappointed with this new development. I'll start a new thread to discuss the merits of a degree shortly.

Naturally as an undergraduate looking to join in 2013 i am slightly irked at the timing.

I was distinctly under the impression the main reason for higher wages for graduates was to encourage more applications and to be more in line with the equivalent civilian pay, due to the high amount of loans incurred whilst studying for a degree.
 

Utopia

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Take from http://www.official-documents.gov.uk.../8299/8299.pdf page 24.

There is a slight discrepancy, in the Appendix a different amount is eluded to. I am going to assume that the above is the correct amount.

Obviously graduates are going to be incredibly disappointed with this new development. I'll start a new thread to discuss the merits of a degree shortly.

Naturally as an undergraduate looking to join in 2013 i am slightly irked at the timing.

I was distinctly under the impression the main reason for higher wages for graduates was to encourage more applications and to be more in line with the equivalent civilian pay, due to the high amount of loans incurred whilst studying for a degree.
Answered my question there, I couldn't read the PDF, work computer...

Anyway, I'm similarly disappointed to be perfectly honest. I thought I was going to be able to chalk up the ?45k I've spent to something. Nevermind...
 

v3locity

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Highly irritating, when you read the appendices it is only the entrants which are getting the pay scales altered. Everything else stays the same.

Hopefully upon completing training you still get promoted and jump straight to that pay scale. Otherwise the potential loss of earnings would add up even more significantly than it will be.

This is all recommended so hopefully it will not happen at all. We shall see.
 

Ninja_Stoker

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To date all AFPRB recommendations have been implemented.

As RM Officers, RN Warfare & Logistics Officers don't need a degree it's presumably become increasingly difficult to justify a higher wage for a non-vocational qualification.

There is a slight discrepancy, in the Appendix a different amount is eluded to. I am going to assume that the above is the correct amount.
OF1, increment level 5 is ?24, 615 - page 44

I was distinctly under the impression the main reason for higher wages for graduates was to encourage more applications and to be more in line with the equivalent civilian pay, due to the high amount of loans incurred whilst studying for a degree.
Looking at civilian graduate employers starting pay, the national average is circa ?25K (below)

AFPRB Report 2012 said:
Graduates
2.32 Median starting salaries for graduates in 2011 were found by the Association of Graduate Recruiters (AGR) to be ?25,500, a 2.0 per cent increase from 2010. Income Data Services (IDS) gave a slightly lower level of ?25,166 which represented a 1.0 per cent increase. Starting salaries for current graduates joining the Armed Forces vary by Service, as does early years progression.
AFPRB Report 2012 said:
3.19 Evidence from our visits confirmed our long-standing concerns over the differing treatment of graduate and non-graduate direct entry Officers. It was historically the case that graduates joined the Services at around age 22, while non-graduates joined earlier at around ages 18 to 19.

The higher level of pay for graduates was intended to reflect their greater maturity and educational attainment. However, the age difference has eroded and starting ages for both groups are now similar. Non-graduates often bring valuable life or professional experience to the Armed Forces. The existing system means that two individuals of the same age who had completed exactly the same training together, in the same roles and with the same responsibilities could be paid significantly differing amounts, with a lasting impact over their whole military careers.

MOD agreed that there was insufficient justification for the differentials in pay and progression arrangements for graduate and non-graduate Officer entrants. MOD proposed, and we agree, that pay for all direct entry Officers, both graduate and non-graduate, should be harmonised at OF1 Increment Level 5 (?24,615), bringing non-graduate pay into line with graduate pay. We also agree that enhanced seniority for academic attainment should be removed for those Officers entering service whose employment is not dependent on their having a degree.

3.20 There are differences within and between the Services on how Officers progress through pay scales once they have completed initial Officer training, and we agree with MOD proposals that progression should be harmonised within the Services.

However, in the initial NERP evidence paper from MOD, we were disappointed that the Navy indicated that there would be significant barriers to implementing changes to new entrant Officers? rates of pay and progression arrangements as the Naval Service had greater graduate/non-graduate disparities than the other Services.

In a subsequent update to the paper, the Navy proposed to implement the changes from 1 April 2014, with transitional arrangements in place for those Officers entering service before 2014.

Following a request from us for further information, the Navy was able to confirm that it would be able to implement a harmonised structure for new Officer entrants in 2013, alongside the other Services.
 

Utopia

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Without detracting from the purpose of the thread, being totally honest, who's in this for the money?

If ??? is all that matters then HM Forces is the wrong place to be looking.
 

v3locity

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I fully understand the reasoning behind the review. Also it is highly unfair to non-grad entries to have to undergo the same arduous training course for a considerably lower pay packet. Increasing their pay is without a doubt a good thing.

Obviously as a prospective graduate entry i will feel this is a bad decision. Coincidentally ?25k average is a lot higher than expected.

As currently there is a much higher amount of graduates beginning YO training it would seem that graduates are more employable. Lowering the entry pay for people who are racking up higher and higher loans, especially with the current increase in tuition fees, seems slightly illogical. Particularly as these people are going to be some of the best candidates for jobs of a much higher income.

In effect the service is relying on the fact that people will want to join regardless of pay seeing as they are the only people that can provide the kind of lifestyle many people would like to have.

As a note for everyone i am going to continue my application for the Royal Marines regardless of pay as i, like many others, want to join the Royal Marines to be a Royal Marine not to earn a high wage. This is not to say i am still not highly disappointed.
 

Eyebrows

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True. I'm just glad I have the old tuition fees.

I feel sorry for those graduates that are paying 9k a year and are going to be on a lower wage.

But like you said most people arn't in it for the money and hopefully it will go up quite quickly after passing training.
 

Ninja_Stoker

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According to the report, only the Navy has such wide-ranging difference between graduates and non-graduates starting pay. In effect it looks like the 'harmonising' was inevitable in view of the fact that pay is supposed to be equal on a tri-service basis.

It will be interesting to see if harmony guidelines (periods of separation whilst deployed outside of UK) become unified also.
 

Eyebrows

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It will also be interesting to see if over the next few years the amount of graduate applicants decreases and the amount of people straight from sixth form goes up.

And the affects this will have on the pass rate due to factors such as life experience etc.
 

Ninja_Stoker

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It will be interesting to see if there's a shift - my guess is yes.

The AFPRB claim there is less of an age difference between grads & non-grads joining. In other words a successful non-grad is likely to be nearer 21 than 18, so will possibly have similar life experience through work as a graduate would maybe achieve through uni.
 

RMC WATKINS

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Ninja does this mean that people with just A-levels will have a equal chance of becoming an officer as applicants with degrees??

Cheers
 

Ninja_Stoker

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They've always had a completely equal chance, selection is based on ability & potential, not academic achievement as long as you meet the minimum academic requirement. It's just that numerically there have always been more people with degrees who pass selection.
 

RMC WATKINS

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They've always had a completely equal chance, selection is based on ability & potential, not academic achievement as long as you meet the minimum academic requirement. It's just that numerically there have always been more people with degrees who pass selection.
Ahh, sorry I always assumed that they purposly took on more people with degrees, my mistake.

Is 250ish UCAS points enough?? I know it's 180 minimum but how would I fair providing my stats are good?
Cheers.
 

DhobiWanKenobi

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I don't think it will mean an equal chance since its the experience gained at university that gives undergraduates an edge, rather than the academic ability. It just means equal pay.

Ninja please correct if I am wrong.
 
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What does this mean promotion wise? Will non-grads have less time as a troop commander or will grads have more?
 
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