Coronavirus (COVID-19)

Rkec

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Thankyou for both wishing my dad well, he is getting better but he is a fit guy and he says this is the most ill he has ever felt. I apologise if I gave the impression I am not taking this issue seriously enough and I am doing my best to volunteer and help out but I just worry about some people I know who will really suffer if this comes into force,

Thanks :)
That is the way the media and some are painting it though. Anyone questions anything, they are into conspiracy theorists or feel they are young and invincible, or even that they aren't taking it seriously.

That tends not to be the case. No matter what path is chosen, people are going to die either through CV or on the other side of the coin just about everything else from Cancer to poverty related nutrition issues.

Questioning things doesn't mean you don't care about people's health, not questioning things does.
 

A350-800

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I didn't mean to post twice, I am not very good at this haha
 

1919

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Personally fully behind this; I annoy my more 'civil rights' lefty type pals by holding the mindset that anything in the name of our safety and welfare (or security) is fair game. If you're not doing wrong then you don't need to worry.

That said, it does raise the interesting debate about Data Rights. The UK in particular kicked up quite a fuss about Big Data and its use, which contributed to GDPR and all that, and now HMG is essentially using said big data to track the population. Going to be lots of fun watching a certain sector of the public kick off when they find out.
Spoken like a true comrade! I'd research the Stasi, or even Blair's vandalism of the constitution. Your 'lefty' mates are the conservatives here: this country's heritage is the Bill of Rights, jury trial, unarmed policemen and the presumption that the state should have to prove itself to the subject, not the other way round.

Where would you draw the line, out of curiosity? Doubtless we'd all be much safer walking round with barcodes tattoo'd on our foreheads.
 
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Harry McRunFast

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It requires zero justification. The reason for stopping exercising once a day outside the home is not because they see that as a risk of spreading, but people still aren't playing ball. So basically everyone stays in unless for essentials. The government are making decisions for the best of us, but the public still think they know better, so it requires zero justification in my eyes.

How can we make people play ball, right anybody out for any reason other than essentials and travelling to work etc, you're getting prosecuted. Don't like it, feel free to complain from inside your house. Anyone who turns against the Police or Government over this need to take a long hard look at where the problem really is. The public have been spoon fed what we need to do to have the best chance at beating this and still soo many people cannot play ball.

If further restrictions get imposed, if the military get called in to assist policing of this, the British Public should hang their heads in shame. I appreciate its a minority, but this minority will make things a whole lot worse for everyone.

Can't wait for the complaints of our Police Forces heavy handiness as well, which will inevitably follow all this -banghead-.

Damn you, you've triggered me on such a lovely day. But kudos to your parents for the work their doing and I hope you're Dad makes a full recovery! I have a cousin who's been a Paramedic for a good 4-5 years now and am immensely in awe of the work they do daily. Up the NHS :D:D:D
Can you imagine the resources required to enforce such legislation though? What about those for whom exercise is more than a hobby, but it is therapeutic... a coping mechanism for past trauma etc.

We’ve already seen a rise in domestic violence, now imagine people are trapped inside their homes and they’re not even allowed out for a walk...

Do we really want to criminalise that which for some is life saving?

With that being said, up the NHS, amen!
 
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Chelonian

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We can't have double standards from people in authority too, like the chief medical officer in Scotland visiting her second home.
Personally I think she should stay in post. Sure, she made a mistake which contradicted the public health message, but if she is the most capable and effective person for the job it seems daft and counterproductive to throw her under the bus for political PR reasons.

And her honesty is admirable. She could credibly have stated that she was travelling to her second home to access documents which were crucial to the public health. In which case she would probably have been granted a 'blue light' escorted transit to her second home.
 

A350-800

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Personally I think she should stay in post. Sure, she made a mistake which contradicted the public health message, but if she is the most capable and effective person for the job it seems daft and counterproductive to throw her under the bus for political PR reasons.

And her honesty is admirable. She could credibly have stated that she was travelling to her second home to access documents which were crucial to the public health. In which case she would probably have been granted a 'blue light' escorted transit to her second home.
With respect I fear she was chosen by sturgeon for a number of reasons other than her ability to do the job. There is evidence to suggest she overlooked people far more qualified because of their pro union leanings. Unfortunately the snp has been using this issue to stir the pot on separatism, going to extreme lengths to show demarcation between the rest if the UK and Scotland in some instances to the detriment if her own people. For example, repeating most of what Boris says again at uneccescary special press conferences and petty disputes in the press about England taking all the ventilators from Scotland from her mps. Saying scotland is so madsiveky differnet from northern englad is slightly ridicolous, and her pubkic safety broadcast mention scitland about 3 times in 30 seconds.It's all about sowing division, promoting separatism and covering up for the Alex salmond scandal. She also went to her second home not once but the previous weekend as well. There was even this bizarre story by nationalists online that royal marines had taken tests away from scottish university and given them to England. I kid you not
 

thirdtry

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Spoken like a true comrade! I'd research the Stasi, or even Blair's vandalism of the constitution. Your 'lefty' mates are the conservatives here: this country's heritage is the Bill of Rights, jury trial, unarmed policemen and the presumption that the state should have to prove itself to the subject, not the other way round.

Where would you draw the line, out of curiosity? Doubtless we'd all be much safer walking round with barcodes tattoo'd on our foreheads.
Now, now. Let's not let a good, fruitful thread descend into that kind of talk. I'm quite aware of the Stasi having been to both the communism museum in Prague and the 'house of terror' in Budapest. They are significantly different to HMG tracking our location in the midst of a pandemic (or indeed accessing our comms and internet usage at a time of heightened or severe terror threat levels).

I could make several comparisons between a particular opposition party's manifesto and the early moves taken by historic communist regimes but that really wouldn't contribute anything to this thread so perhaps can be diverted elsewhere.

A more relevant question if you're keen to debate in this thread would be: do you disagree with HMG accessing people's location data in order to protect the nation?
 

Chelonian

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There was even this bizarre story by nationalists online that royal marines had taken tests away from scottish university and given them to England. I kid you not
To be honest I don't know how factually correct such stories are.
Regardless though, I've certainly got my own opinions on the handling of the current health emergency but sadly my opinions are unlikely to influence policy.
 

A350-800

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To be honest I don't know how factually correct such stories are.
Regardless though, I've certainly got my own opinions on the handling of the current health emergency but sadly my opinions are unlikely to influence policy.
Haha I didn't believe the sorry anyway, later on it turned out apparently the tests had been donated and the navy offered to move them
 

1919

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Now, now. Let's not let a good, fruitful thread descend into that kind of talk. I'm quite aware of the Stasi having been to both the communism museum in Prague and the 'house of terror' in Budapest. They are significantly different to HMG tracking our location in the midst of a pandemic (or indeed accessing our comms and internet usage at a time of heightened or severe terror threat levels).
I'm meant nothing personal by it, but it is true. Tyranny in the modern world (feudal man is a different thing) is progressed in almost all cases via a potentially/maybe/somewhat real but massively exaggerated threat. What a threat actually is varies according to each society but that's everything from kulaks hoarding grain, post 9-11 terror laws, McCarthyism etc. etc.

Covid 19 bears all the features of everything that's gone before it. We will come out of this more like China and less like Britain.

And no, I don't agree with the government using data tracking. I'd recommend the Lord Sumption interview on this.

The pandemic is not nothing but there is a clear danger in glee in which governments and police forces have set in these new powers when the science is still pretty unstable. And they've been pushed into by mass paranoia, and that part of us that actually quite likes being protected and told what to do.
 
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thirdtry

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I'm meant nothing personal by it, but it is true. Tyranny in the modern world (feudal man is a different thing) is progressed in almost all cases via a potentially/maybe/somewhat real but massively exaggerated threat. What a threat actually is varies according to each society but that's everything from kulaks hoarding grain, post 9-11 terror laws, McCarthyism etc. etc.

Covid 19 bears all the features of everything that's gone before it. We will come out of this more like China and less like Britain.

And no, I don't agree with the government using data tracking. I'd recommend the Lord Sumption interview on this.

The pandemic is not nothing but there is a clear danger in glee in which governments and police forces have set in these new powers when the science is still pretty unstable. And they've been pushed into by mass paranoia, and that part of us that actually quite likes being protected and told what to do.
Fair comment. Interesting note to look at is the situation in Hungary right now.
 

Rkec

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@1919

5G kills people? What!? :D:D:D
I looked into that and it's odd. The theory started out as a plausible theory, I don't agree with it but it is plausible.

The original theory is that 5G causes some of your cells to produce something called Exosomes. Exosomes produce a similar test result to the COVID-19 particle. It there for is alleged to produce a lot of false positives when testing for CV.

The theory is 5G causes false positive test results, somehow people have now taken that to mean 5G produces CV.

It's crackers
 

Rob20

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Do you mean it is now a point about control rather than clinical need? If that is what you meant, I actually think that is now the case for some politicians. I have been staying in because I have mostly worked from home anyway. When I heard Matt Hancock this morning laying down a challenge to stay in or else today, hell yeh I'm going out.

I can't see any clinical need to ban exercise, it's not based on any data that has been placed in the public domain. No effects of a total ban would be seen for 3 weeks, we are coping now and next week is meant to be the peak - why do they need to reduce the numbers for 3 weeks time? We need to remember that we need this to go through the population, otherwise we never come out.

The Excel Centre in London doesn't have any customers. London hospitals are well within capacity. Add to that the effects of the first lock down should be being seen from next week.

The Government are lying about people going out and forcing the lock down to be extended. The Government's own model that they were waving about 6 weeks ago showed quite clearly that there would be many more deaths if we did nothing, but it would all be over from start to finish in 2-3 months. How on earth they can now claim it will last longer is beyond me. If anything, the rest of us should be cheering them on as they catch it.

In about 6-8 weeks time, private pension companies are warning that they may not be able to continue to pay pensions. Anyone want to see how many pensioners that is going to kill off?
My original slightly cut throat stand point was let's crack on as normal whilst isolating is the vulnerable.

However, the bosses have gone for a lockdown. People, are most definitely not playing ball. People in my local area are still out playing football in the park, having gatherings at the swings and local parks. How can we measure the progress of this lockdown is people aren't following the rules, so yes if it needs to turn into a control order, in order to achieve a clinical benefit then so be it.
 

Rob20

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Can you imagine the resources required to enforce such legislation though? What about those for whom exercise is more than a hobby, but it is therapeutic... a coping mechanism for past trauma etc.

We’ve already seen a rise in domestic violence, now imagine people are trapped inside their homes and they’re not even allowed out for a walk...

Do we really want to criminalise that which for some is life saving?

With that being said, up the NHS, amen!
But where do we draw the line. Things won't get escalated if everyone plays ball. That isnt happening so what do the government do? Let everyone crack on and push the boundaries further and further?

We live in a society now where everyone questions authority, from your 4 year old in school, to your adult generation who fancy seeing their mates down the park for a picnic during an epidemic.

Should the lockdown be escalated, and domestic violence increase among other crimes, well who's to blame? The government who were acting with the populations best interests, or the soft fools who couldn't hack staying in because the sun came out?

We live in a soft generation. If we've been told by the countries rulers, which we elected, what to do, then we should all get in line. And we shouldn't be shocked to find a nasty consequence waiting if we dont.
 

Rkec

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How can we measure the progress of this lockdown is people aren't following the rules, so yes if it needs to turn into a control order, in order to achieve a clinical benefit then so be it.
I'm genuinely not trying to be a smart a*text deleted** here. I don't think we should be measuring the progress of the lock down. I think it is best if we just measure the progress of the virus. I think the Gov has got mission creep and I don't think they have realised yet.

After this comes an economic fallout that we haven't seen in a hundred years. The Government is going to need people onside. If they start going zero tolerance on them than we will be in trouble. Good news for the Corp by the way, I foresee a recruitment boom and CTC toppers within 6 months. But I'm going off on one there.

When we first started this, estimates were of 500k dead, since then the powers that the Gov have and are implementing is rising, whilst the negative fallout of CV is falling. I estimate we are going to see less than 3,000 dead due solely to CV by the end of this.

I share some of your frustrations on the lock down. I find it appalling that Derbyshire Police are following couples parking up and walking 200 meteres from anyone through a country park, whilst at the same time ignoring certain religious groups gathering in their hundreds. I find it appalling that planes are still flying in with non UK citizens onboard.

I think this country still operates on common sense, sure fine and lock up the ones in groups who are intermingling. But they have to stop doing what British Police have been doing for the last 20 years, going after the easy targets. If they want to start with the worst offenders and then get to the odd person sunbathing then so be it, but work down not up.
 

1919

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But where do we draw the line. Things won't get escalated if everyone plays ball. That isnt happening so what do the government do? Let everyone crack on and push the boundaries further and further?

We live in a society now where everyone questions authority, from your 4 year old in school, to your adult generation who fancy seeing their mates down the park for a picnic during an epidemic.

Should the lockdown be escalated, and domestic violence increase among other crimes, well who's to blame? The government who were acting with the populations best interests, or the soft fools who couldn't hack staying in because the sun came out?

We live in a soft generation. If we've been told by the countries rulers, which we elected, what to do, then we should all get in line. And we shouldn't be shocked to find a nasty consequence waiting if we dont.
I agree about the individualism and the lack of respect, but the government that we elected, as you say, didn't initially want to go down the 'lockdown' route. They were pushed into it via a demand that 'something', 'anything' be done while the science was, and still is, shaky. That is also a lack of respect for authority, just manifesting itself differently.

We've also no exit plan.
 

A350-800

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But where do we draw the line. Things won't get escalated if everyone plays ball. That isnt happening so what do the government do? Let everyone crack on and push the boundaries further and further?

We live in a society now where everyone questions authority, from your 4 year old in school, to your adult generation who fancy seeing their mates down the park for a picnic during an epidemic.

Should the lockdown be escalated, and domestic violence increase among other crimes, well who's to blame? The government who were acting with the populations best interests, or the soft fools who couldn't hack staying in because the sun came out?

We live in a soft generation. If we've been told by the countries rulers, which we elected, what to do, then we should all get in line. And we shouldn't be shocked to find a nasty consequence waiting if we dont.
I understand your point mate and you make them much better than I can but though I did vote conservative last Christmas but I still don't believe the government will act solely in people's best interest; they will also be worried about not appearing hard enough or the aftermath of the lack of PPE or testing, so this measure may be an all too convenient one even if the clinical significance is debatable. Questioning such a severe measure does not make you anti authority.
Also with regard to whose fault the domestic violence is isn't really that important, we should be trying to minimise it as much as possible, which is why any complete lockdown must be very carefully considered and fully explained, and also temporary and in accordance with a strategy and plan, not simply a government measure aimed to look decisive or to cover up for other failings
 

Rob20

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Can you imagine the resources required to enforce such legislation though? What about those for whom exercise is more than a hobby, but it is therapeutic... a coping mechanism for past trauma etc.

We’ve already seen a rise in domestic violence, now imagine people are trapped inside their homes and they’re not even allowed out for a walk...

Do we really want to criminalise that which for some is life saving?

With that being said, up the NHS, amen!
To add abit specifically about Exercise being therepeutic etc. Another prime example of how weak we are.
Look at our history. Both my grandads were evacuated during the war. Im sure being at home with friends and family would have been therepeutic for them. We can still exercise at home. We have xbox, ps4, facetime, sky tv, Netflix etc etc. And yet, people cant cope staying at home for a few weeks.

Everyone needs to get in line and man up for the time being. We're British. We've been through worse!
 

A350-800

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To add abit specifically about Exercise being therepeutic etc. Another prime example of how weak we are.
Look at our history. Both my grandads were evacuated during the war. Im sure being at home with friends and family would have been therepeutic for them. We can still exercise at home. We have xbox, ps4, facetime, sky tv, Netflix etc etc. And yet, people cant cope staying at home for a few weeks.

Everyone needs to get in line and man up for the time being. We're British. We've been through worse!
I appreciate your point but I do genuinely know of some healthy and robust people who are in abusive relationships and could be in serious difficulty if this comes into force. They can't really man up through domestic abuse for an undertimined amount of time with no hope of escape. I also don't see it is weak how some people find exercise therapeutic, for some people it is there only chance of being alone, keeping sane and keeping balanced. With respect these are massive adjustments to some people in a short space of time
 
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