Intermittent Fasting

Utopia

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I can't access the page at work but my personal opinion is that while it has it's benefits, I prefer something along the lines of carb-back-loading.

I think theres a good study somewhere comparing the two...

Anyway, I certainly think a period of no carbs (and for extention purposes, no food) is very healthy. It allows teh body closer to it's homeostasis and combined with some sneaky nutritient and workout timing can produce very appealing results.
 
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stokey_14

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Never read a whole lot on IF. Mainly because I?ve never been a massive fan of not eating haha

That?s not to say it?s a bad idea. Fasting has for years been used in many various different ways and I believe there is a popular diet called ?the warrior diet? (similar) which I?ve seen a lot of over on Ross Training, often with lots of praise.

I think it?s something that could very well be ideal for busy folk. Is it for you, me or everyone. Probably not, nothing is however if it tickles your fancy I?d give it ago.

One thing I do like about it is it shows everyone that you don?t need to be eating every 3 hours? extended periods of time with out food isn?t this catabolic nightmare.

I used to stress in high school and early collage if I wasn?t getting protein down my neck through out the day, thinking I?d lose muscle. Now looking back I can see how silly that was.

If you fancy the look of it my advice would be suck it and see.

Keep a daily log (if you don?t already) and review said log through out. If it works, bingo, if not alter or find another plan

Stokey
 

VTomasi

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Never read a whole lot on IF. Mainly because I?ve never been a massive fan of not eating haha

That?s not to say it?s a bad idea. Fasting has for years been used in many various different ways and I believe there is a popular diet called ?the warrior diet? (similar) which I?ve seen a lot of over on Ross Training, often with lots of praise.

I think it?s something that could very well be ideal for busy folk. Is it for you, me or everyone. Probably not, nothing is however if it tickles your fancy I?d give it ago.

One thing I do like about it is it shows everyone that you don?t need to be eating every 3 hours? extended periods of time with out food isn?t this catabolic nightmare.

I used to stress in high school and early collage if I wasn?t getting protein down my neck through out the day, thinking I?d lose muscle. Now looking back I can see how silly that was.

If you fancy the look of it my advice would be suck it and see.

Keep a daily log (if you don?t already) and review said log through out. If it works, bingo, if not alter or find another plan

Stokey
But I loooooveee breakfast..

Maybe I'll build up the will power to give it a go! :evil:
 

Utopia

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Once you get used to having an empty stomach it's pretty good. Means that when you do eat you enjoy it more. Adds value to your food.

Also, the hunger fades after a while when your body is able to turn to fat for energy.
 

VTomasi

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I suppose this would also mean no Casein shake before bed then?

I will look for some more literature on the suggested composition of the meals also. Any info Utopia? (*text deleted**, was born in Guernsey ha - can see on your location info)

Would need to stock up on BCAAs too, those things disappear quickly!
 
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stokey_14

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But I loooooveee breakfast..

Maybe I'll build up the will power to give it a go! :evil:

Same mate, currently my favourite meal of the day. Hence why I?m not/ have not given this ago.

This morning I had a omelette (3 eggs) with cheese, shredded spinach, tomato salsa and black pepper.

And a bowl of blueberries and strawberries.

Tasted godly. After latterly years of forcing plain scrambled eggs or occasionally fried eggs down my neck the discovery of omelettes has been a god send.


Would need to stock up on BCAAs too, those things disappear quickly!
You by powdered or tabs?

Never used the stuff my self, with a high protien diet + my shakes have it added already but as far as i can see bulk buying the powder is much, much cheeper than tabs.

Stokey
 

Baron

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So what's the crack here during the actual eating period? Keep it clean and low carb for fat loss?
 

VTomasi

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I just have a shake, which I enjoy, but not quite the feast you put on haha.

I should also mention that I'm not looking to lose weight - 5"9' 78-80kg 6-8% Body Fat.

Just considering alternative diet ideas to stay 'cut', but also maintain high performance.

Another point to consider is that sometimes I will train twice a day - run in the morning, strength + metcon in the evening.

All that considered, opinions on the above?
 

Utopia

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http://articles.elitefts.com/nutrition/carb-back-loading/

Is a good place to start with back-loading. Having done IF for the last year I tend to eat less in the day than true back-loading and also don't allow the full-on pig out like he suggests. I'll stretch to some rice or pasta, but not cherry turnovers and burgers!

I do this 4/5 days a week, with two training sessions on most days, one day where carbs are introduced about lunch time (rest day after morning session) and then two (usually weekend) days where I revert to 3 square meals and unlimited training.
 

VTomasi

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You by powdered or tabs?

Never used the stuff my self, with a high protien diet + my shakes have it added already but as far as i can see bulk buying the powder is much, much cheeper than tabs.

Stokey
I just received a tub of tabs, 270.

But if I started to burn through them with IF, I'd look at the powder and maybe capping it myself if the powder it particularly horrible.

http://articles.elitefts.com/nutrition/carb-back-loading/

Is a good place to start with back-loading. Having done IF for the last year I tend to eat less in the day than true back-loading and also don't allow the full-on pig out like he suggests. I'll stretch to some rice or pasta, but not cherry turnovers and burgers!

I do this 4/5 days a week, with two training sessions on most days, one day where carbs are introduced about lunch time (rest day after morning session) and then two (usually weekend) days where I revert to 3 square meals and unlimited training.
Thanks for the info.

Would I assume that you do longer endurance stuff on the weekend then? Seeing as surely one would want to fuel up before doing so (assuming run is in the morning).

Also, no casein protein before bed then?

What have the results been for you?

My diet is already good, I have low BF and good performance - so I suppose I should question whether I really need to change at all..
 

Utopia

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General Training day. (Mon-Fri, except Wed)

0530 - Wake up and go for light jog. Drink water.
0645 - 'Bootcamp' session at the gym or down the beach, depending what the trainers decide. Usually very intense, sprints, circuits. All the nice stuff...

*text deleted**I either now don't eat at all (only water) until 1300, maybe sometimes have a cuppa (no sugar)*text deleted**

1300 - This is where I'll either eat something (Tuna salad, protein shake) or not.
1800 - Get home from work, still not eaten anything. Strength session. Of late it's been pullups, flags, leg raises and pressups. Or a gym-based strength session.

2000 - Get home from the gym and EAT!


Weekend is much more endurance work or something like sailing where I have to be on it the entire time so fuelling up with balanced meals thoroughout the day helps
 

Baron

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Utopia, how much do you weight in at? and how tall are you?
 

Utopia

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6'1" and a bit. Oddly though I used to be taller (6'3"), not quite sure how? I hover around the 13 stone mark with a lot of variance due to eating cycles. What I call my 'fighting weight' when I'm exercising is 12st8lbs. I hit that most days and then rise up to about 13st3lbs later in the day.

My fat % has been in steady decline although it's getting slower now. Usually around 9-11%. I can go leaner but it is bloody hard work!

EDIT: I'll note that when I was officially 6'3" (measured at a medical, I was a drop over 16st at about 10% BF. In short, I was a tank. My current build is far more sustainable and I'm having more fun with body weight exercises I could only dream of when 16st.
 

jable1066

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Right I can't be bothered to read all this. I do carb back loading. It is a performance diet, it'll get you stronger and leaner. I have read the EXPENSIVE book and trolled the forums and listened to podcasts and read the articles on downsides of IF as opposed to CBL and I could probably answer any questions you had.

Intermittent fasting (IF) is supposedly flawed for a few reasons. To keep it simple. 16 hours is too long without food if you're wanting to get down to 6-8% and be shredded and muscly. Despite how lean Martin Berkhan is there may be better ways to achieve it... 12-14 hours is meant to be the sweet spot. HOWEVER. After 12-14 hours without ANY food, you can give yourself little injections (not literally) of fat and protein to spare muscle, keep insulin low (hence more fat burning), keep producing ketones etc. Medium chain triglycerids (MCTs) like in coconut oil are apparently the best because they are quickly used by the body. With protein, you need to be careful (apparently) because anything over 10g may spike your insulin. It's better to keep having fat (as this is fuel) and save protein for after your workout (with the exception of 1 or 2 small meals i.e. omelette cooked in copious amounts of butter w/ bacon)...

What was I saying? So after 12-14 hours, if you're wanting to burn more fat it's best to keep protein low and fat intake high (within reason) for the next few hours before your workout. Working out fasted (A.M) is meant to be good for depleting your glycogen stores and keeping you burning fat... however I read somewhere doing HIIT fasted is bad news and you should stick to LSD walking... Not running... Apparently running raises cortisol and actually helps you GAIN fat and lose muscle. Who'd of thought?

This is where you have to compromise and decide on what your main goal is. For me, I want to be like 6% body fat, ripped, massive, super quick/good at running... and strong. Not much then... So unfortunately I have to run which is bad for fat loss. You don't actually need carbs for anything other than after doing heavy resistance training. Not Crossfit... Not anything endurance based like running. APPARENTLY.

Ermmm I'm really going off on one here... So IF... The BCAA thing. Berkhan reckons you should have these to spare muscle. However they raise insulin. Specifically the L-Leucine which is the only component of the BCAA you actually gain benefit from. You're better of buying just that powder from MP or Bulkpowders because BCAA as a whole are a rip, and L-Leucine is more affordable. It's the anabolic amino. It raises insulin levels (hello muscle building [but also fat building if timed incorrectly]) and increases production of myostatin. You should though, only want to raise insulin after resistance training because of the state it puts your body in... By going ultra low carb for the first portion of the day (by in effect fasting (just from carbs)) you shrink your fat cells and like cease production of them... or something, whilst not doing anything to your muscle cells. Fat cells shrink, muscle cells stay the same = winning. Lean muscle gain. So yeah - to do that insulin needs to be low before training so that's why no BCAA should be taken... If you want to spare muscle it's more effective to use fats and small protein... and caffeine... and creatine... Something like 5g creatine, 5g coconut oil, 10g whey protein, 200mg caffeine. Or a coffee and 3 eggs fried in butter. Careful of eggs though because they spike insulin too - by cooking them in butter (fat) you dull the spike though which makes them ok to eat.

As for carbs... Go wild with them after you train. High GI though. Sugary cereal w/ dextrose, pastries (because of the refined, gluten depleted flour), donuts, pizza... Try and keep fat low because you'll get a better insulin spike this way (muscle cells get more bang for their buck and can suck up all the juicy carbs and get swole)... But only go wild with them if you've done heavy lifting... Compound stuff, Wendler, Starting Strength etc...

I really could go on but I'll give you a condensed, cliff notes version of what I've been doing which has helped me stay at around 168lb at 7-8% BF at 5ft8 whilst getting stronger and having my cake and EATING IT ALL UP YUMMY...

1. Foresake carbs before heavy resistance training. This means less than 30g.
2. Fast for 12 hours and up to 20 with only small bits of protein and loads of fat. Like up to 100g before training. This is the fuel. You don't need carbs for fuel.
3. Have a ridiculous amount of caffeine. And I mean ridiculous.
4. Go mental with carbs after heavy resistance training. Eat WHATEVER.
5. Foresake anything that will spike insulin before heavy resistance training. Diet soft drinks, protein without fat, BCAA etc.
6. Do everything you can to spike insulin after resistance training.
7. Forget about BCAA and especially tablets. Get L-Leucine powder - it's disgusting but it is so very beneficial. Have it after training. Anywhere from 5-40g with every meal after training is meant to have good effect. I have about 10g after training and 5g with each meal thereafter.
8. Run a prep phase to get your body using fat as fuel. It's awful but once you've done it you literally feel like the hulk. It's actually called the hulk effect. Go <30g carbs for 7 days and do some HIIT in this time. When you start producing ketones you will feel like you can destroy the world. After this you can go carb mental after your HEAVY RESISTANCE workouts.
9. Decide on your goals... You can't have everything but with experimentation you can have close to it.
10. Experiment... everyone is different. It's taken me a while to find a sweet spot with how many carbs I can tolerate etc.

It all sounds very extreme and scientific. BUT, if you want to have ridiculous low body fat, eat whatever you want, be strong as an ox and awesome at running you kind of have to take extreme measures. When you learn how to do it though, it really is easy. It's only taken me a few weeks to figure it out and I'm enjoying life more than ever.

With all that said, I think IF probably does work pretty well despite the little flaws. It's a really easy way to get ripped and stay strong and gain lean muscle. The way Berkhan does it I think is to have your biggest meal when you break the fast... Gorge once or twice. The biggest mistake people will make is not eating enough calories or fat. I regularly have over 200g fat a day and I haven't gained any fat in months.

If you've got any specific questions PM me and I'll gladly discuss and point you to all the research and articles that back what I say up and also that outline how to do this type of performance diet.

Jonny.

Edit: Oh and casein powder before bed isn't really necessary. You can go well up to like 36 hours without eating and not losing any muscle. Plus casein is rank. I'd rather have some cottage cheese or.. regular cheese with some beef. MMMMMMMmmmmm. Also, you would do just as well with whey before bed. Any protein will do the trick. I actually have casein immediately after training (with whey and another form of protein as a 'blend').
 

VTomasi

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Very interesting post indeed, Jonny.

Some food for thought. har har har:doh:
 

Baron

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My question is about training first thing in the morning. I literally get up at 6am, have a coffee, then drive to the gym for 6.30am.

So am I right in thinking that my window for eating would be between 8am and 4pm? That sounds horrendous!
 

Utopia

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I was going to buy CBL by Kiefer, Jonny...however, I think I'll just print your post and take to it with a highlighter! :saythat:

Sat here with an empty(ish) stomach and my coconutty coffee. Looking forward to my heavy session and the homemade pizza I've been promising myself.
 

Utopia

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My question is about training first thing in the morning. I literally get up at 6am, have a coffee, then drive to the gym for 6.30am.

So am I right in thinking that my window for eating would be between 8am and 4pm? That sounds horrendous!
Nope, cortisol is too high in the AM, consequently so is insulin sensitivity.

Unfortunately for morning trainers you manipulate your insulin levels as far as possible with coffee, pre and post workout. Have a protein shake with Leucine and some very simple carbs (as in Dextrose) after the workout, then knuckle down for the day and then eat as mentioned (higher GI carbs though) in the evening.

Hard but needed. I treat AM sessions as intense circuits/sprints to deplete the glycogen stores, go all day running on empty/fat stores, then heavy resistance in the PM then EAT!
 

Baron

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Nope, cortisol is too high in the AM, consequently so is insulin sensitivity.

Unfortunately for morning trainers you manipulate your insulin levels as far as possible with coffee, pre and post workout. Have a protein shake with Leucine and some very simple carbs (as in Dextrose) after the workout, then knuckle down for the day and then eat as mentioned (higher GI carbs though) in the evening.

Hard but needed. I treat AM sessions as intense circuits/sprints to deplete the glycogen stores, go all day running on empty/fat stores, then heavy resistance in the PM then EAT!
Ah, ok cool.

So...

6.30am Train
8am - Protein shake + simple carbs (would some OJ suffice?)
12.30pm - first meal?
8.30pm - stop eating?
 
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