Jerusalem is Israel's capital - Trump

Discussion in 'Jollies Bar' started by Rover, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Rover

    Rover Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Posts:
    2,747
    President Trump has announced that the US now recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

    Mr Trump described the move as "a long overdue step" to advance the Middle East peace process.

    The president said the US would support a two-state solution, if approved by both the Israelis and the Palestinians.

    Ahead of the decision, a spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas warned it would have "dangerous consequences" for the region.

    Speaking at the White House, Mr Trump said he had "judged this course of action to be in the best interests of the United States of America, and the pursuit of peace between Israel and the Palestinians".

    The president said he was directing the US State Department to begin preparations to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

    Jerusalem contains sites sacred to the three major monotheistic faiths.

    East Jerusalem, which includes the Old City, was annexed by Israel after the Six Day War of 1967, but is not internationally recognised as part of Israel.

    The decision comes despite the opposition of the US's allies in the Muslim world.

    But moving the embassy fulfils a campaign promise and will appeal to Mr Trump's right-wing base.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42259443



    Stupidity in action.-banghead--banghead--banghead-
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Seen Seen x 1
  2. Chelonian

    Chelonian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Posts:
    4,571
    A slogan which could be aptly woven into the carpet of the Oval Office.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Rover

    Rover Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Posts:
    2,747
    Trump should be improving relations with Iran, not moving Israel’s capital to Jerusalem if he wants to achieve peace

    Respected Israeli security veterans have been arguing the need to talk to Iran. They should be heeded, and the debate opened up

    • James Watt
    • Thursday 7 December 2017 14:54 GMTThe US administration should recognise that President Rouhani offers the best opportunity for diplomatic solutions AP
    When things keep spiralling into chaos, the only way is to step back and take a hard look at the fundamentals. This week has tossed another couple of spoilers into the already fraught situation of the Middle East. The most notorious is President Donald Trump’s self-serving announcement that the United States will recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, upending seven decades of careful international consensus on the unique nature of the city, and on the part its status has to play in honouring the rights of the Palestinians. The other is the news from Yemen of another blood-soaked development in its devastating war, with the rupture of the Houthi-Saleh alliance leading to the latter’s death and the prospect of more factional fighting.

    The Trump announcement on Jerusalem has drawn almost universal opposition. The Gulf states who had been pinning hopes on a return of American interest in their security, are appalled at the gratuitousness of a move that feeds popular resentment of the United States, and makes a partnership all the more costly for them, as it does for all Muslim countries. The UAE has been conducting quiet diplomacy to improve the situation in Gaza, as the most urgent humanitarian need in the complex process of reaching a peaceful settlement between the Palestinians and Israel. The Jerusalem announcement jeopardises that.

    The choices facing the countries of the region were already complicated enough. Though Isis may now have been defeated in territorial terms, jihadist insurgency in the region is not, as the recent atrocity in Northern Sinai attested. The measures taken against Qatar by four Arab states were in protest at what they saw as its continuing support for militant Islamist factions, described under the inaccurate title of “the Muslim Brotherhood”. Saudi Arabia meanwhile has made confronting Iran the centrepiece of its regional policy, finding common cause with Israel.

    Iranian power in Arab lands has indeed increased as a result of the joint military effort to defeat Isis in Iraq and Syria, in which Iranian Revolutionary Guards and Iranian-sponsored militias have played a major part. The Damascus regime remains critically dependent on them for its survival. In Lebanon, Iran’s proxy, Hezbollah, continues to hold the country hostage and to alarm Israel.

    What is driving these conflictive tendencies? There is certainly a strong dose of ideology in the mix. Though Iran may no longer be claiming to export the Islamic Revolution of 1979, it does see itself as the protector of Shia minorities in the region. Saudi Arabia, for its part, sees itself as protecting Sunni Islam from Iranian encroachments. Israel has to contend with the militant ideology of the settler movement. President Trump’s Christian Zionist base panders to his compulsive self-aggrandisement.

    A stronger driver though is self-protection, and a memory of existential vulnerability. This is certainly the case with Israel. For Iran too: Saddam Hussein’s unprompted aggression in 1980, which the UN Security Council infamously failed to condemn, and the eight years of devastating war that followed egged on by the major powers, left Iran convinced that only by acquiring strategic alliances with Iraq and Syria could it hope to defend itself in future. Saudi Arabia and its allies see this forward defence as aggression: the classic formula for an avoidable war. Israel’s constant threats to destroy Iran and its nuclear capability have led Iran to build up Hezbollah as a deterrent, which with its reported 160,000 missiles it probably now is.

    Looking behind these essentially psychological factors, what is the reality of these threats? Is Iran intrinsically an existential threat to Israel? Is Israel intrinsically an existential threat to Iran? Is conflict between Iran and its Arab Gulf neighbours inevitable? Does it have to be so? Is it beyond human intelligence to find a better way?

    Respected Israeli security veterans have been arguing the need to talk to Iran. They should be heeded, and the debate opened up. Respected American voices have been calling for an end to the demonisation of Iran: the US administration should recognise that President Rouhani offers the best opportunity for diplomatic solutions, and Congress should not fall into the trap of imposing further sanctions. Honest advice needs to be given to Saudi Arabia about the best way to build regional security. The Europeans should stick to their guns on preserving the nuclear agreement with Iran, and Britain should come off the fence about the future of the occupied Palestinian territories.

    Outside powers should learn to heed what the region is saying. Largely unnoticed, some countries, notably Egypt, the UAE and Oman, have been consistently arguing for de-escalation and for intelligent diplomacy. They need active support from the major powers, and the Permanent Five need to fulfil their responsibility for international peace and security. Not in the old, discredited way of imposing self-serving outcomes, of the kind President Trump has just inflicted. But by upholding principles that are the only foundation for peace, and by respecting the voices of a region too-long traduced by external power-plays.

    James Watt is a former British ambassador to Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt and now works in London as a partner in the political risk consultancy the Ambassador Partnership LLP
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Gucci Info Gucci Info x 1
  4. Chelonian

    Chelonian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Posts:
    4,571
    "The most notorious is President Donald Trump’s self-serving announcement that the United States will recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, upending seven decades of careful international consensus on the unique nature of the city, and on the part its status has to play in honouring the rights of the Palestinians."

    My bold. At least two ways of looking at this:

    1. No previous strategy has yet worked in the so-called peace process. Give it a go.

    or

    2. The pro-Palestinian element of the electorate of the USA is negligble, has little commercial clout and is of zero value to Mr Trump's personal interests. Whereas the Israeli and Zionist contingent are electorally and commercially powerful in the USA.

    After about five seconds of serious consideration my feeling is that option two is the more likely.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Rover

    Rover Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Posts:
    2,747
    So long!:)
     
    • Gen Dit Gen Dit x 1
    • Hoofin Hoofin x 1
  6. GreyWing

    GreyWing Nobody

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2007
    Posts:
    4,714
    I foresee Israel having a lot of problems in the next few years. Unless they can get their hands into the workings of a secular none democratic China and Russia. With no campaign bribes and no God card to play, I think they are going to need a bit of luck.

    I can't see the country of Israel lasting more than 20-30 years.
     
  7. Rover

    Rover Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Posts:
    2,747
    Never come across any American who knows or even understands the Middle East.

    On one occasion at the Pass Out of a countries military service people both the American and British Ambassador of the host country were present.

    The American Ambassador addressed the assembled graduates in English and was actually heckled by the graduates.

    The British Ambassador addressed everyone in fluent Arabic and was cheered.

    Added to which the British members of the Training Team also sang the relevant National Anthem also in Arabic.;):cool:
     
    • Like Like x 5
  8. arny01

    arny01 Ex Pongo.

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Posts:
    1,397
    Hearts and Minds in full Effect!!
     
    • Gen Dit Gen Dit x 1
  9. Rover

    Rover Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Posts:
    2,747
    Once asked some Iraq military who served in the conflict what they thought about the American and British who having won occupied their country.

    The Americans were considered arrogant, bully’s, having no sense of culture who thought nothing of shouting at and abusing anyone who was an Arab/Muslim.-banghead- A number stating if there was an American in front of them they would happily shot them. Nothing personal, just that they were American.o_O

    The British they found would sit and take tea with them. Listen to any complaints and try and assist if possable.They both understood and respected the Arab culture some even speaking Arabic. If there was any violence the British would come down hard but after would sit, take tea and respect others views.:cool:

    I must admit after this we no longer allowed any Americans on the team to go on the range with us, our Iraq colleagues having AK47’s and full mags. ;)
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Gucci Info Gucci Info x 1
  10. Rover

    Rover Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Posts:
    2,747
    Trump Jerusalem shift puts counter-terror efforts at risk

    By Frank Gardner BBC security correspondent, Bahrain

    • 8 December 2017

    The recognition by US President Donald Trump of Jerusalem as Israel's capital has triggered more than just criticism from America's allies.

    Here in Bahrain, at the annual Manama Dialogue security conference, there is an almost universal concern that the announcement will be a gift to the region's twin adversaries - Iran and the jihadists of al-Qaeda and so-called Islamic State (IS).

    "The president has lit a fire and left his Arab allies to deal with the blaze," said Elisabeth Marteu, Consultant Senior Fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS).

    A former UK Special Forces officer, who asked not to be quoted, compared the announcement to "throwing a hand grenade into a room with the pin removed".

    Officially, the Arab Gulf rulers have always supported the Palestinian right to a homeland, recognising it as a long-running source of grievance for the whole region and a popular pan-Arab, pan-Islamic cause.

    Privately though, older members of the ruling families have never fully forgiven the Palestinian Authority for siding with Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait in 1990.

    Soon after that country's liberation I saw a piece of graffiti daubed on a wall in Kuwait City that read: "Jerusalem is the eternal home of the Jews and I am a Kuwaiti writing this."

    That was in 1991 and things are different now. Most of the Arab world's populations are too young to remember, or even care about, the invasion of 1990, but they do care about Jerusalem.

    It is the third holiest site in Islam, after Mecca and Medina, and it holds a special place in many people's hearts. What does this mean for counter-terrorism? It means a risk on two counts.

    The first is the risk that people who might not be well disposed towards the West but were not planning to translate this into violent action may now think again.

    Hediya Fathalla, an expert on Gulf security and a former Bahrain government official, told the BBC: "There are dormant jihadist mentalities who are sitting there thinking 'I'm not operational but I have jihadist feelings' so will this push them over the fence?"

    The second risk is on the other side of the equation, namely that someone previously co-operating with US government agencies may now be less inclined to do so.

    They may well have an excellent working relationship with, say, their counterpart at the CIA or NSA. But at the back of their minds there could now be a pervasive doubt over whether a US administration that has acted in this way actually has their interests at heart.

    Even at the very top of a country's hierarchy, in the Royal Court of Saudi Arabia, there must now be concerns that Saudi Arabia has chosen to work so closely with a White House that has just infuriated so much of the Arab world.

    Then there is Iran.

    The Islamic Republic continues to rival Saudi Arabia for power and prestige across the Middle East. It has long supported the twin anti-Israel militias of Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in the Palestinian Territories. The overseas arm of its Revolutionary Guards Corps is called "the Quds force", meaning "the Jerusalem force".

    "Iran has always used Jerusalem as a sort of narrative when stirring up Arab masses, it's what helped it align with Hamas... so I think it will definitely play into the hands of Iran," said Hediya Fathalla.

    Commenting this weekend in the online edition of IISS Voices for the International Institute for Strategic Studies, which organises the Manama Dialogue, Elisabeth Marteu also believes the announcement will help Iran's interests.

    "This would be a great boost to Tehran, which is trying to repair its image after the Syria and Iraq conflicts," she writes.

    Over time, the damage to US relations with its Gulf Arab partners will be repaired. Washington is simply too big, too powerful and too important an ally to ignore.

    The US Fifth Fleet patrols the Gulf, providing a counterweight to Iran, while sophisticated US weaponry makes up much of the region's arsenals.

    But the recent US announcement is a reminder to rulers here that this White House administration is still capable of causing them intense embarrassment.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42289383
     
  11. Mr S

    Mr S Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2016
    Posts:
    176
    App Stage:
    Parent
    And that is why, when I was in Iraq, I had a large Union Flag for our vehicle so that we could be clearly identified as not American.
     
    • Gen Dit Gen Dit x 1
    • Hoofin Hoofin x 1
  12. Seags98

    Seags98 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2017
    Posts:
    170
    App Stage:
    TMU
    I don’t understand the mass uproar with Trump saying this when Obama said the same thing in 2008 yet not a peep was heard, same thing with the Travel Ban. Obama did the same back in 2011. Don’t get me wrong I’m not “pro-trump”. Just seems that the far left and liberal groups are picking on every single decision to get him impeached

    youtube.com/watch?v=Tl-GHERR9hM
     
  13. Rover

    Rover Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Posts:
    2,747

    Listen and understand the full 37seconds not just the first 10 seconds.

    What US politicians say for public consumption and vote gathering is one thing. To do what Trump has done is another thing entirely.

    Two large and powerful voting blocs being both the Jewish and the Evangelical vote.

    All American Presidents have made speeches about the fate of Jerusalem it wins votes.

    Trump in his ignorance has gone over the top. The results being the reactions in not only the Middle East but worldwide.
     
    • Gen Dit Gen Dit x 1
  14. Chelonian

    Chelonian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Posts:
    4,571
    On a more general theme about the wider region:

    Following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait I was operating a small dredging ship out of Dartmouth. It had a handy crane aboard so we often had contracts to deliver building materials to remote shoreside properties.

    One such client was a retired Army brigadier who lived down river of Dittisham on the Dart. I had a couple of site meetings with him and during one meeting his landline telephone was ringing almost constantly. His wife would answer and then quietly summon him to speak. The old boy was very subdued. Over a pot of tea he explained that much of his later Army career had been in the Middle East. He had first hand knowledge of personalities, alliances, politics and tribal affilliations in the wider region.

    The Ministry of Defence and the Foreign and Commionwealth Office were bombarding him with calls to enable our government to build a picture of the community dynamics. All well and good but as the old boy said "They're just doing due diligence. It's all very sad. Nothing I tell them will make any difference. We've never had the political wit to understand the Middle East and we probably never will have."
     
    • Like Like x 4
  15. Seags98

    Seags98 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2017
    Posts:
    170
    App Stage:
    TMU
    I’m no subject matter expert in World Politics so Thankyou for clearing that up.
     
  16. Rover

    Rover Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Posts:
    2,747
    Nor am I.
    Just travelled to many different places.
     

Share This Page