Discussion in 'General Royal Marines Joining Chit Chat' started by CHUB!, Apr 9, 2018.
You from ROI?
Ya bud from Limerick. I was told that at the psychometric test.
Marine website says Nufield Health centers..does the PT set the speed of the treadmill or do I
We all know whats going to happen now don’t we? Standards are just going to drop and every tom, dick and harry will be walking in. People who apply for the royal Marines go in thinking this is the hardest thing they will ever do. So why dissappoint them?
Criteria elements of selection have fluctuated year on year but the training standards have remained pretty much the same since their inception.
What I believe has happened in recent years is that we had a surplus of applicants and evidence that the fitter the joiner, the better the chance of success in training. The standards crept steadily higher and higher, the recruit test scores increased, the medical standards were more stringently applied, minimum weight (60kg) was introduced, then increased to 65 kgs, the PJFT was introduced and got increasingly more difficult. PRMC "C grade" passes were classed as fails, etc, etc.
Eventually, the number-crunchers noticed that despite to increasing standards, the pass out rate ceased to improve. I've called it "excellence creep" previously, but essentially we started rejecting people that had previously been accepted and reached Kings Squad.
We know that those achieving C grade PRMC passes are more susceptable to injury in their first ten weeks of Recruit Training but we are currently accepting that risk due to low numbers of applicants - linked to a buoyant civilian jobs market.
Previously there was no PRMC (PRC) or PJFT or minimum weight, currently there are (yes, even females must have a minimum bmi of 18).
I reckon now is a good time to join as we are prepared to take greater risks, but sooner or later the risk/success ratio will inevitably stop being financially viable.
The finished product, the Commando, is as good now as they ever were - even if the selection criteria to enter into training is variable.
Agreed. Nothing when I joined, except the RT, interview and medical, which if you had two arms, two legs, a head and an ability to cough when told to, you passed.
On the phys side, when I asked what I could do to prepare, was told to do nothing, as that was their job. The first sessions in the gym was unbelievable, with guys throwing up and passing out. Around 30 plus weeks later you passed out, with similar numbers in KS to now.
As for the reasons, I don't know. But the majority of entrants back then had manual jobs, so their core strength was already there. I worked on building sites, so was on the go all day and then out at night. Computers hadn't been invented and very few of us had cars, or parents with cars, so we walked most places.
What was there, was the desire to pass out in a KS. It just depended on how much you really wanted it. The modern day statement is, A State Of Mind!
Off or a lie down now before the football starts!
A lot of the problem we may have is the younger generation do not do a lot of sports or have active jobs, also do not have the general mentality and toughness, as it seems to get more and more lax with disaplin and respect
I still cannot believe that the incline has gone, when I did the test practices in 2014 I’d manage to scrape a 9:00 min finish and I was only 78kg then.
Now in 2018 4 years later boarding 90kg of muscle I can smash this test in 7:45 as a finish. This is alarming to me, but isn’t a detriment as on the test day I can mentally get in the zone but for others my god.
All I can say is for those preparing get used to the 2% incline if you want the real deal experience. That way you can’t kid yourself that you trained to the old standard.
It's an interesting observation and one which I was discussing at a meeting yesterday.
The Royal Navy had to ramp-up its basic training following the HMS Cornwall debacle (Iraq Hostage incident) as it was determined that there wasn't enough grit and robustness in basic training. Many recruits remarked that training at that time wasn't as tough as they had hoped. RN training was extended to include field exercises, more phys and a high ropes course was introduced. The model? Royal Marines recruit training.
The Royal Marines meanwhile recognised that they could reduce training fails by introducing more coaching & mentoring expertise among their training staff. "Nod Whispering" - It works too.
At present, RN basic training is certainly not as physically demanding as RM recruit training but there are as many as 50% failures in some classes (troops).
Possibly the Navy needs to maintain the grit, but introduce "Matelot Whispering" to reduce fails. I'm no expert but RN training fails seem to be ridiculously high.
Not heard of that term before, but if it means giving recruits the self confidence to get them through training, then I'm all for it.
That is the one thing, with hindsight, that I found missing from my RT. I hated every minute of my time at CTC. I had no confidence at all in my ability. Myself and all the other members of my Troop believed that we had our names changed to You *text deleted*er. As in "Get on the flank, You *text deleted*er", "more effort, You *text deleted*er", etc. etc.
I certainly did not believe I was as fit as I was, purely due to not being offered any encouragement, and I was a Diamond!
The Corps, thankfully, has come a long way from then.
To many, the Corps is the "gold standard" with regard military training as it's probably one of the most researched areas due to the high level of training fails associated with Commando training.
The coaching and mentoring aspect is superb, quite sophisticated and certainly produces the goods in greater numbers.
“Train in” “Select out” two training methods used in the military. Many moons ago the “Select out” method was used in my training. Sounds like Alan’s was too? It shatters confidence, I felt as though I was hanging on by a thread the entire time! Constantly feeling as though I wasn’t good enough, even though I never failed any criteria tests!! The select out method identifies the weaker members and targets them for failure! So that only the strong members remain.
“Train in” on the other hand identifies the weaker members and holistically seeks to bring them up to the required standard through coaching and mentoring.
I think the train in method is now widely used across the Armed forces. And I’m glad to see it. Feeling low on confidence and not believing in your own ability isn’t exactly a good frame of mind to be in??
The select out method is still used however. I believe the UKSF still use this method?
Yep, I heard from a recruit, recently at HMS Raleigh, stating that after so many times being told you are useless, you start to believe it.
I guess there should be a point at which the training teams should come under closer scrutiny when the training wastage exceeds that expected. Perhaps it already does happen, I'd certainly hope so - high wastage for me indicates inadequate training, it doesn't necessarily reflect the physical difficilty of the course or mental fragility of the recruit.
Never heard of those terms before, but it makes sense. There was definitely no stick and carrot back then, just mainly stick, so much so, all of my Troop had come up with all sorts of plans to extract revenge on the TT once we had passed out!
My cousin was a PTI on the staff at CTC and he once told me that there had been a massive shift in training methods in the 90s? which I would guess would be this. From what I see of the TTs at CTC nowadays, they seem to have it right.
I know this may have been asked already but when will the Royal Navy website update the PJFT information on their site? I'm training as if it's going to be timed for under 10 minutes at 2% Incline regardless of whether the change has been made or not (Win-Win regardless)
No idea unfortunately. The RN website is run by a civilian company and to be fair, they only update stuff when the service advises them accordingly.
In my previous job, it's one of the things I used to do routinely and indeed offered to continue but was advised that I could not undertake both roles. Ironic, eh?
A holistic approach to trg is absolutely the way ahead. With fewer applicants we need to ensure that when a recruit is 'binned' it is for a good reason. 'Face doesn't fit' doesn't cut it any more. Any soldier at an ATR who is removed from trg has had to go through a number of remedial actions before they get the chop. Most important is the recruit reviews which consist of a team looking at the individuals performance. This will include welfare officers, PT staff and, if reqd, medical staff as well as the trg team to ensure when a recruit is removed, it is for a good reason.
My experience within the army's trg organisation is that we still get the same left and right of arc when it comes to standard of recruits, we just have to invest more time in some of them to ensure they meet the required standard rather than chopping them at the first failed criteria test. Recruit wastage rates are very closely monitored and any anomalies questioned robustly to ensure fair play.
train for this anyway because if you can pass this then you can pass the ew standards
Part of being good at something is recognising that you are. Recognising that you have a level of expertise.
This engenders a confidence in one's ability. As long as it's tempered with humility to ward off arrogance, it's likely, in my opinion, to make for a better soldier, sooner.
Fully agree. I'm hoping to pop down to Raleigh in the near future for a week or so to see first-hand how it's going.
It's interesting to hear a recruit's perspective but tempered by seeing how the training teams view things to add balance. Recruits often struggle with the concept of group responsibility to engender team ethos and often think they have it harder than a comparison group.
Separate names with a comma.