Officer, WO, and NCO pay levels.

Discussion in 'Current & Military Affairs Discussion Forum.' started by PoS, Nov 18, 2016.

  1. PoS

    PoS New Member

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    It has come to my attention that SRGs are paid more than 2nd LT, this in itself to me is not vexing, except in reference to (the admittedly and sadly small number of) NCO's who transition to direct command.

    Of these do they need to take a pay drop in order to do so, (Which seems unfair as even a Senior Corporal with quick and ideal and probably impossible rocking to that rank, would still at the best instance, still have a shorter term of service, than had they been in a position to join as an officer) or is there a pay-parity in place for them?

    I also can't understand why Officer Cadets get £18,000 compared to the £14,000 of everyone else.

    Yes, I'm back, but I have need of information.
     
  2. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker Careers Adviser

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    When you get promoted you move onto the next higher pay grade/increment level at the new rank. You should never receive a decrease in income when promoted.

    The reason Officers get paid more than most rating or other ranks is because additional educational qualifications are required & the higher pay is intended to attract the higher academic achiever. Until recently those joining as a graduate officer used to join on twice the income of a rating or other rank.

    The starting pay of rating Engineering Technician (Nuclear Undergraduate Apprentice Scheme) Submariners is £30,000, more than Officers...and you get a free nuclear engineering degree.
     
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  3. BoxSwallow

    BoxSwallow Active Member

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    I believe the rate of pay for and Officer in training in the Army is £25,727 (Soldier in training is rightly as you said £14,783). Officers get paid more in training I think due to them needing higher level qualifications to join (A levels) and the fact that they are essentially entering a managerial role. If you entered a civvy manager job straight from uni you'd expect to be paid more than someone who has just joined at the bottom and is under your management. (also minor pedantic point but the correct acronym for Sergeant is Sgt not SRG). I don't know about the rest of your query so will leave that for someone with the knowledge to answer that but I would assume that they take a pay cut. It is important to note though that NCOs and Commissioned Officers have quite different roles
     
  4. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker Careers Adviser

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    All RN/RM Officers start on £25k incidentally. Officer Cadets are URNU, UOTC or UAS students and that's the annual rate. If you divide the £18k, by 365 you get the daily rate of pay the students receive for the full days they actually 'work'. They seldom 'work' more than 24 days a year, on average.
     
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  5. PoS

    PoS New Member

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    So, a Sgt who passed out RMAS would receive a higher level of pay?

    What determines levels of pay? Seniority? Merit? Technical skill seem to make a large amount of it, which is fair.

    Thanks Swallow, force of habit, a bad one.

    I agree that the roles are different, one a manager, the other a supervisor, and a senior supervisor more valuable than a junior manager.

    I'm actually pleasantly surprised that it only takes a level 2 LCpl to achieve parity with the first officer rank, it seem more sensible than I though the MoD was capable of.

    2nd Lt is indeed that number, but officer cadets start with £18,000 which seems silly to me just now, I personally wouldn't consider pay in training in a civvy environment to be different it's generally just enough to keep you going during that time.

    I understand that people moving from jobs with more skills would expect more as costs are higher, but surely it would be better to do this on a case-by-case basis?

    More qualification or not, day 1 you're nothing, all the bits of papers mean nothing, because you haven't learned to apply them yet if they're even relevant, like I.e. Law, or Engineering.

    I had no idea that was the case Ninja, so RMAS functions similar to a university in funding matters? What counts as "Work?" I'm assuming that more labour off "campus" than anything else, to be fair cost are lower for RMAS students with free bed and board, but there are some considerations like civvy rent (Even if its just for storage lockers) and dependants, are these met as they would be a civvy university course?

    Do officers who have passed out stay at 18K level until they've fulfilled technical training? Infantry or tank courses etc. ?
     
  6. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker Careers Adviser

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    Pay increases with experience through 'time served'.

    For URNU, OTC & UAS 'work' is quite varied but effectively when you wear uniform and turn up at your unit, be it in the classroom or in the field or at sea, you get paid. They have weekly two hour 'drill nights' during term time for which the student gets one quarter of a day's pay.

    Officer Cadets get annual incremental pay rises and an annual tax free bounty, same as other Reserve forces. The difference is they cannot be operationally deployed.

    http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/operations/uk-home-waters/university-training
     
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  7. cc1

    cc1 RAF Commando Officer (former RM)

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    Time served, rank & trade.

    Officer training is ~64weeks whereas OR is 32. ORs also get a pay rise ~wk 26 to ~£17k. Officers deserve every penny of the extra couple grand they earn for the first few months.
     
  8. BoxSwallow

    BoxSwallow Active Member

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    PoS I believe is aiming to join the Army not the Royal Marines
     
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  9. PoS

    PoS New Member

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    Awesome thank you for the info ninja

    Okay, my source is here: http://www.armedforces.co.uk/armypayscales.php#.WC9oP7IS_IU

    It has levels within ranks.

    What causes a person to rise a level within a rank, could you give me an example of a threshold please?

    I'm not saying they don't I'm just not sure why ORs don't deserve more, perhaps I underestimate the number of people who think it'll be a laugh and drop out when -shock horror- turns out it isn't.

    Would be very interested to know what officers earn post-commission but pre-vocational training.

    I ask here because it's broadly, comparable, plus very knowledgeable, and less cynical than else where. :P
     
  10. BoxSwallow

    BoxSwallow Active Member

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    I think I've read it on here (or navy net) before that you go up a level each year as your seniority/experience increases within that rank then once you reach the top level your pay does not increase until you are promoted up a rank.
     
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  11. cc1

    cc1 RAF Commando Officer (former RM)

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    Yearly increments within that rank.

    I've been in 10years. I'm a Corporal and I earn the same as a senior Lieutenant.
     
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  12. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker Careers Adviser

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    As has already been stated, annual incremental pay rises happen after each year has elapsed at that rank. It's called the incremental basic date (IBD) or as the Navy calls it, your nautical birthday.

    After you reach the top rate pay grade for the rank, you just get cost of living pay rises each year until promoted.

    The IBD governs pay grade, not the stage of training.
     
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  13. PoS

    PoS New Member

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    I was referring to OR training, my apologies that must have seem Outstandingly disrespectful.
     
  14. cc1

    cc1 RAF Commando Officer (former RM)

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    I don't think you'll find an OR that genuinely thinks they deserve to earn the same as an officer recruit during training. The intellectual demands are completely different and both have completely different roles and responsibilities within the military.

    I'd consider the higher pay compensation for not being in a position to fix bayonets and get amongst it like us "other ranks" get to enjoy!
     
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  15. PoS

    PoS New Member

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    But equally important.

    Junior officers do get some of that, upto about company level, and personally I wouldn't expect anyone under me to charge anything unless at least one officer is right behind them, preferably myself, or that the willingness to do so had been proven, but it is vital that there is someone to coordinate efforts, it's very strange that in the current primary unit (Platoon) there is only one officer, historically it's always been atleast 2, even a roman century had 2 centurions post phallannx period.
     
  16. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker Careers Adviser

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    As in "Follow me men, I'll be right behind you"? :)
     
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  17. cc1

    cc1 RAF Commando Officer (former RM)

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    1 troop-commander co-ordinates 3 sections and (possibly) an FSG element.

    Troop attacks and other such deliberate actions are a series of section attacks using all 3 sections in some capacity. All that's required to launch a successful section attack is 7 motivated marines, a Corporal and a "Roger" from the boss.

    If a troop commander has his bayonet on and he's in the stack he's not doing his job properly.

    All troop commanders should be willing to do that, but more importantly 'mission command' dictates that he gives his section a mission and allows them the freedom to carry it out. Trust in his men to do everything that's required!

    Edit: I feel this thread drifting!
     
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  18. BoxSwallow

    BoxSwallow Active Member

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    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  19. PoS

    PoS New Member

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    Depends on the action, at some-point you become so committed to an action (Make or Break) there are no more orders to give, if you win your men are going to need atleast a day to consolidate, if you lose, then you need to scraper, that's the point where the command section should have license to "get stuck in", but it depends also on the style of command, the command section is basicly the platoons reserve in my head, it also depends on the unit, and situation, if you get ambushed, you don't always get the luxury of that, obviously, the nearest part needs to go deal with the problem, or everyone does, officers will in general although requiring equal capability, not have that as part of their primary role.

    It should be noted that officers are a preferred target, equal to machine gunners and snipers for infantry opponents, and AT users for armour, as they are an important part, I still feel there should be an ensign (2lt) and an Lt per unit though.

    On the risk of going down the rabbit hole, I'll say no more on this.

    Yes Ninja, exactly, I'm not having my Itinerary dictated to me by the enemy! I'll finish my tea before I go into battle thank you very much! Anyone seen the scones? :P
     
  20. cc1

    cc1 RAF Commando Officer (former RM)

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    No, I think you're confused about how troops are deployed and also the meaning of mission command. I think we should talk about this so that it clears up the misconceptions you have (and provides clarity to those wanting to be an Officer).

    Orders are given from the top-down at every level of those invested in the action. CO > OC > Tp Cdr & Tp Sgt > Cpl > Mne. I've bolded those elements that are required to give deliberate orders prior. When you give orders you provide context via 2-Up and 1-Up intent. You then give a mission, and how you'd like your subordinates to achieve it (note: like). You then state their limits of exploitation, aka... "go no further than"... "or at this point go firm and await further orders" etc...

    Once you've issued your orders you Have provided your subordinates with a mission. Once you give them a mission; you transfer ownership of that task and let them crack on with it. That is the fundamental principle by which the British military works. Give your men a task then let them achieve it by whatever means you've given them.

    This is mission command.

    Secondly, a troop attack comprises of 3 components: assault, fire-support and reserve. Coincidentally there are 3 sections in a troop! At no point should a troop commander be with the assaulting section - he is not there to bail out the assault if it goes wrong - the reserve section is. He coordinates this via radio (or voice!). This is where a robust estimate is required and his intellectual capacity is stressed to evaluate if the enemy can and should be assaulted! This estimate goes all the way back up the command chain to the CO and hierarchy that determine a 3-1 ratio - see the 3:1 principle springing up again?

    Officers are preferred targets hence they generally always stay a tactical bound behind the section in contact along with a signaller. The Tp Sgt is another tactical bound behind the Tp Cdr. the Tp Sgt should never be at the same location as the boss. The boss should never be in the same location as his men in contact. It's simple tactical sense. Cover your *text deleted* and protect your most vital assets!

    I fear you've got a mental construct of how you'd like things to work based on... well I don't really know, but in reality officers are not door kickers, they're not grenadiers and if I ever saw my Tp Cdr with me on the assault I would go spastic! Officers are thinkers, we are the do-ers.
     
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