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Officer, WO, and NCO pay levels.

Discussion in 'Current & Military Affairs Discussion Forum.' started by PoS, Nov 18, 2016.

  1. PoS

    PoS New Member

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    Edit [-I'm retracting what I said here in this box because it is unhelpful and your point still stands,]

    In principle I understand, you have three "Waves" as was developed during the battle of the somme, but this again is foreseeing the ideal, or staring scenario, after losses you might not be able to muster 3 sections, you might be over-extended and find you're needed to protect an area too large for one plt in theory, once a section is given an order, just like a platoon, this is done on initiative, something else developed into doctrine at the somme.

    I'm sorry, I am a theorist, and this means I sometime get lost in what to me is a typical seniro, but it's not how things are SUPPOSED to work, which is the basis for how this is taught.

    In principle, we agree, this is how it should function, but if a section is on patrol, and the FOB is attacked, then the command section may well be called upon to fight, if the commander (probably not with the command section) is in a local town talking to the natives, and the enemy roll up, he may well need to fight, if god forbid there's a breakthrough further down the line, and the enemy outflank you, and reserve section is already committed, then the command section will need to fight.

    I hope this doesn't seem defensive, I agree the command section should never ever be kicking in the door, but on occasion, if the door there behind is kicked in, then they will need to return fire, or take it to them.

    That said my area of interest is very early modern and I do have much to learn and this has been very valuable to me, but understand, this isn't how I want it to work, it's how I expect it to, this is my fault, but, I assume the worst, because by doing so, you're ready for it should it happen. :)

    This confuses me and I'd be very grateful if you'd explain this terminology.
     
  2. cc1

    cc1 (former RM)

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    You're creating scenarios to justify your desire that necessitates an officer firing his weapon.

    Yes there are times when a Troop Commander needs to fire his weapon but if he is firing his weapon someone's not done their job properly. Hence, the notion that being a troop commander will involve you assaulting anything is absurd.

    I'm literally quoting you British military doctrine. So, by all means please disagree with me on principle but you have a romantic notion of everything going tits-up, blokes dying all over the place and a young, thrusting, dashing officer springing into life to turn the tide of battle through exceptional leadership fitting his bayonet and leading his men at the front of an extended line attack which is just ludicrous and that's being kind.

    If that was to happen nowadays everyone with a commission involved in that attack would be getting a P60 and a One-way ticket to civvy st.

    It's because of the very atrocities committed during WW1 that this current doctrine exists; not as you'd seem to like; the means to poke holes in it

    There are always outliers to the norm; but don't use these as examples of the norm. I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubble that's been sold on a false image but I think a reality check is needed here.

    Edit: I'm also innately aware of how Recce Plts work. This may come as a shock to you but Commando Units also have them ;)
     
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  3. PoS

    PoS New Member

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    If I assume I will be *text deleted*ed in the *text deleted* the moment the reserve takes over, I'm thinking about it, and the people I'm serving are safer.

    I am aware that I have a certain reputation here, that is not, flattering, and you are right I have just given you scenarios that would require such an desperate course, if you have a suggestion of what would be a better approach in one of those after having called all available forces for help, please do tell me, I'm sure with your experience, it would far better than what I came up with in isolation, I'm supposed to be an officer, not a samurai.

    This is doctrine, and it's a very good doctrine, but it assumes two things, parity of local force size, and parity of preparedness, it is untenable to assume an officer will never be called upon to fight, in the 18th century officers carried a sword, as it was normal for noble civilians to do so, and nothing else, it was soon seen it was folly. Doctrine is doctrine, but if was set in stone, we'd have a spreadsheet not a junior officer in a platoon.

    I expect as an officer to fight about 20% more than a medic, who very rarely ever fires a round off of a range, and only at the most dire end of need, when my arms are the only value I have left, brains do get tired, officers are fallible, and sometimes will make a mistake not matter how hard they endeavor not to, it might be because of stupidity, bad intel, or just a plan case of being out numbered and having nowhere to run, and sometime you get tom the point in a fight where slugging it out is all you can do, and that holding back is only going to be to your detriment.

    Recent scenarios have taught us that when all the parts work correctly, intel, logistics, strategy, the case is unless the civvie behind you is an insurgent, the command section spends most of it's time looking at maps and giving orders, which is, We Agree, how it should be.

    When it's not like that then it's hardly romantic, it's atrocious, it mean someones, somewhere, in our organization, failed to do their duties, and placed their fellow servicemen in danger by doing so, maybe it was the officer in the scenario, maybe an intelligence officer, or signaler, but it's *text deleted*ing awful, and frankly I'm a bit of a softie and I'd rather not be spatted by brains, I like thinking, I like organization, I like caring about people, I don't see getting to stick it through Johnny Foreigner as a perk of the job.

    However, it is not impossible in the event of a war with say, Spain, we might find ourselves in such a situation where we're not fighting inferior force sizes, or asymmetrical warfare, then the possibility of these scenarios become allot more plausible, if you look at the korean war, that sort of thing happened, positions toppled by waves upon waves of chinese.

    I would very much like for you to explain the 1-up thing please, it's a gap in my knowledge and I'm sure it's vital. (Wait, is it chess terminology, 1/2/3 step thinker?)

    I retracted that for that exact reason, your point stands up EVEN better in that scenario, I failed to property state that I do not believe this to be the proper state of affairs.

    I'll be honest, I though they were a relatively new thing, did not know RMCC Had them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2016
  4. PoS

    PoS New Member

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    -wrong button-
     
  5. PoS

    PoS New Member

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    RIGHT, can someone please tell me what I did wrong, because I swear to go I just had an augment when we're on the same damn page. Look at my post that hasn't been edited at the top, it's the same damn thing. :P

    Where did I flub, because that's *text deleted* be really bad if I do get to where I want to be.

    The only point I disagree on (contradicting myself) is that it needs someone to muck up, caveat is sometimes it's simply the other guy did his job better than his counterpart on our side.
     
  6. Caversham

    Caversham Former RM Commando, Moderator

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    Really? Can't imagine where you get that impression from! :D:D:D

    Alan
     
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  7. Chelonian

    Chelonian Moderator

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    With respect, your recent rambling post doesn't entirely support this assertion. I for one would find it helpful if questions could be more concise. Thanks.
     
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  8. Illustrious

    Illustrious Royal Marines Commando - Moderator

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    Explaining 1-up and 2-up would not be enough to plug that gap in your lack of understanding of military operations. @cc1 has been more articulate than I care to be but personally, I'd follow you into battle, but only out of curiosity.
     
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  9. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    @PoS you said it yourself, your a theorist. You are being told by lads that have done the job. I agree, support and Echo everything that @cc1 has said.

    No plan survives contact with the enemy. You can theorise everything and anything on the battlefield but you will never, ever be able to predict how combat works. Your being told exactly how it is and how it works.

    If the boss is fixing bayonets, then the brown stuff has hit the big whirly thing. That's not to say it can't or hasn't happened.

    This isn't COD, or Ultimate force.


    And 2 officers for a Troop/Platoon? Stuff that! Get enough hassle from the 1 Boss! Give me 2 hard faced, nails, baby eating, chain smoking, gravel voiced, angry Stripeys with roll ups any day!
     
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  10. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    And @PoS noone cares who you are, who you call God, who you love, what colour skin you are, or what you like to do behind closed doors (except maybe a few things). The corps and the military is full of different people and different ideas and beliefs and personalities. But what comes first and foremost is your soldering ability. You cannot compare modern combat in a battle space, to the flat ancient combat of Romans on a battlefield.

    What lads and we on the forum care about, is commando qualities, the ability to be a thinking man's soldier, the ability to assimilate information and make judgments and answers based on sound judgment. You like organisation, but organisation and planning is the first to take the hit in combat.

    You need to remain rigidly flexible.


    The military is a meritocracy. The more qualifications and position you hold, the more you earn.
    The more time and experience you do, the more you earn.
    The more courses and skills you acquire, the more you earn.

    There's a big difference between the responsibilities of a Marine, and that of a Troop Boss.
     
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  11. Rover

    Rover Moderator

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    o_O

    Not even out of curiosity.
     
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  12. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    I would, for the dit!
     
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  13. BoxSwallow

    BoxSwallow Active Member

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    I think where you've went wrong is that 90% of the time an officer will/should not have to fire his weapon but as cc1 rightly says (based on 10 years of experience in the military) there is the 10% of the time when and Officer will need to fire his weapon:
    But instead of accepting this as fact from a place of experience you continue to explain why you would need to use your weapon in these very rare scenarios as seen here in this 7 paragraph wall of text...which cc1 has already said (above) do happen but are hardly the norm.
    So this wall of text is actually entirely irrelevant since as you said you and cc1 both agree that 90% of the time an Officer will not have to fire his weapon but in the 10% of times he does, everything has gone to poo (maybe not because someone has messed up on our side possibly because the enemy has got one up on us or something like you said). So ultimately that entire post could have been cut down to "I see what you mean cc1 that 90% of the time an officer will not have to fire his weapon and that in the 10% of times that he does, something has gone wrong somewhere. Thank you for your down-to-earth explanation of the role of an Officer, could you explain what you mean by "When you give orders you provide context via 2-Up and 1-Up intent."?"
     
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  14. Illustrious

    Illustrious Royal Marines Commando - Moderator

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    I've done many things in my career "for the dit" and I've got the scars, both physical and mental, to prove it.
     
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  15. PoS

    PoS New Member

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    I don't recall claiming to be competent in that regard. ;P Merely liking it.

    Volunteers to tattoo "brevity is the sole of wit" on the inside of my eye lids in neon glow in the dark ink? We'll make it into a charity event, bidding start at an fitting, 2p.

    (Side note: Romans actually used the 3 wave tatic, hastari, principles, and triarii, the only difference is they did not support each other, merely took over)

    I'd make a joke about swallowing, but not sure it would be well received, but thank you for taking the time to deconstruct that for me, I'll endeavor to make use of it.
     
  16. BoxSwallow

    BoxSwallow Active Member

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    You're welcome. I think it's just a case of knee jerk reaction wanting to defend your point/yourself when you see "No, I think you are confused...". Rather than seeing the factual information given by cc1 in post numbers 17 & subsequently 20 as just that, information. You seem to see it more of an attack on your knowledge rather than others wanting to expand your knowledge because of that opening line. So then you rightly want to explain why you are not confused and explain your chain of reasoning behind your original point to defend your knowledge which you are clearly quite proud of. I don't think you deliberately set out to cause arguments though.

    Perhaps @GreyWing could set a character/word limit (if that's possible) on your posts for a probationary period though so we don't end up with the same scenario as last time and even to help teach you to be more concise with you queries and explanations? (Not trying to be patronizing genuinely just trying to help)
     
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  17. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    We don't use 3 "waves". Modern section battle drills are built upon the tactics developes by the SS in WW2. Not the Romans.

    It's a stepping stone effect. You don't move without a foot on the ground covering fire. So although yes there are 3 sections on the ground. They work together rather than a wave.

    These tactics can be altered depending on the theatre, Arctic and jungle and Afghan all used variants of the Section Battle drills but the basic building blocks are the same. and tactics but it's the building blocks to use. The French Differ and the yanks just do crazy Rambo stuff in the jungle.

    It's like leap frogging. But with guns and stuff.
     
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  18. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    I feel you brah.
     
  19. Caversham

    Caversham Former RM Commando, Moderator

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    Agree with that! Let the officers do the map reading. :):):)

    Antartica.jpg
     
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  20. PoS

    PoS New Member

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    (Merely meant the idea of having units take over as the sharp edge of the fighting is quite old, the romans received support from the velites, special units with light weapons for throwing, of course in the age where ranged weapons were unpopular, it's harder to support, it's merely one of those nice little mirrors in history,

    I under-stand the modern principle, although describing it as a wave was foolish of me as it does indeed have an expectation that it's one section at a time.)

    But you seem to be confirming to me that S1 goes in while S2 covers the approach, and S3 stands around watching the rear/flanks, not doing too much fighting, then when S1 makes it, S3 become the tip.

    Would that be correct TPA?

    (I'll be honest I have a hard time thinking about arc of fire rather than the position of the unit, it's one of the MANY things I need to work on!)

    I'm game for a word limit. :)

    In support of the idea of 2 officers though, the idea is you have a 1Lt. and a 2Lt, and the 2Lt is basicly an understudy of the first, it allows a tactical eye at the front, it hopefully results in more competent officers, canada for instance has one Commissioned and on WO per plt.

    What the heck is a "dit?", also I chain smoke rollies, incase that gets me any points. :P