PRMC vs ROP

[Oldtimer]

I'm not the most informed person when it comes to the applications process and how it works but I'm currently debating about applying myself.

I've read that the PRMC was a course which was unpaid to test you physically and mentally if you had what it takes to start recruit training over a period of a few days.

And ROP is 4 weeks paid course which candidates cannot withdraw from until 28 days has passed. I'm curious to find out if others believe this is viable option and will prove effective in more recruits making in to training.

I've read that applications are at an all time high due to the coronavirus outbreak and there is a high wastage of troops who dlnt make it through to Recruit training from ROP.

To summarise is it beneficial to pay a candidates roughly £1000 and plus expenses of travel and food when it could only cost a fraction for them to attend a PRMC.

Wouldn't it be more beneficial to just extend the length of training and included those first 4 weeks so candidates wouldn't be able to transfer to other forces and say test candidates physically after 3 days to see if they meet the minimum requirement to attend.

 

[G_commando]

The pmrc was used for a long time.
Yes it would be cheaper to use the pmrc but there was a lot of people that would complete it and pass then never return to ctc for many reasons some just decided they didn't want to do it or others becuse at points there was an 8 month wait from pmrc to starting training.
Plus the rop will give people a better look at what life is like in training so as a result there should be less people dropping out of training because they don't want to be there.
Obviously it's still relatively new thing so only time will tell.
Finally the if you get in and pass you will learn there is a lot that the milltary dose that makes no sense.

 

[Chelonian]

...so candidates wouldn't be able to transfer to other forces...

ROP is barely one year old. It will be interesting to eventually learn how many Recruits actually transferred to another service.

Transfer is not a right. It will be determined by individual circumstances and suitability. Also, someone imagining that they can transfer from ROP to, say, RN aircrew might be disappointed when the only transfer option available is chef on a submarine.

 

[Oldtimer]

I was curious just on others forum users opinions about it and it would be interested to see some data regarding it in the future.

Also it seems quite a vast change of career if someone who was applying for the royal marines wished to transfer another role in the navy, couldn't this also lead to candidates not completing the required training and withdrawing from the service.

I've read quite a few posts and spoken to some previous serving members and they agree ROP would be good insight of what training is really like for the majority of it.

 

[G_commando]

Even before the rop a lot of recruits would drop out of training even of they were doing fine. It would be for all sorts of reasons. On the day you are due to leave they would get the army and navy recruiters in to have a chat and quite a few would end up joining one or the other. The failure rate for basic training for the navy and army is fairly low just becuse of the nature of their.
As for vast change in career it all depends what branch they are going in to obviously for you being older you have some life experience where as some people ultimately want to be in the millyary and arnt overly bothered what part of it that is.

 

[Ninja_Stoker]

It would be interesting to hear feedback from those in Recruit Training now, how many from their ROP start date made it into recruit training and how many didn't.

I've heard various reasons why ROP is supposedly here to stay but equally suspect that as one of the longest, paid selection courses bar none, someone at MOD or in the Treasury is going to want to save money sooner or later and they'll be asking for justification in comparison to PRMC.

 

[Oldtimer]

It would be interesting to hear feedback from those in Recruit Training now, how many from their ROP start date made it into recruit training and how many didn't.

I've heard various reasons why ROP is supposedly here to stay but equally suspect that as one of the longest, paid selection courses bar none, someone at MOD or in the Treasury is going to want to save money sooner or later and they'll be asking for justification in comparison to PRMC.

I've read a few posts and you're a careers advisor if that's correct.

I personally believe it will be stopped quite soon or the 4 weeks will be incorporated in the normal training syllabus.

With covid helping increase applications and from what I've read the VPJFT is very easy compared to the PRMC to gain entry in to training.

 

[Ninja_Stoker]

I've read a few posts and you're a careers advisor if that's correct.

I personally believe it will be stopped quite soon or the 4 weeks will be incorporated in the normal training syllabus.

With covid helping increase applications and from what I've read the VPJFT is very easy compared to the PRMC to gain entry in to training.

Yep, I don't have any insight into stats unfortunately but am not necessarily critical of the ROP however the inescapable fact is it is pricey.

The Navy made a unilateral decision to insist all people joining must have a passport which would save them 85 quid for everyone that doesn't already have one. Bearing in mind, 76% of UK adults already have one. With penny-pinching on that scale, there's no wonder the ROP is quite different to PRMC in order to ensure direct comparisons are difficult.

One plausible argument I've seen to justify ROP is to there is a longer period to determine medical suitability in the initial stages. There are other strong cases for ROP, but I'm half expecting someone to announce it was a trial (it isn't) that has now concluded, the results analysed and a reversion to the original selection system.

Probably worth adding this is just my random thoughts, I've no evidence to support my opinion & not heard anyone echo my thoughts in recruiting or from within the Corps.

 

[Oldtimer]

Yep, I don't have any insight into stats unfortunately but am not necessarily critical of the ROP however the inescapable fact is it is pricey.

The Navy made a unilateral decision to insist all people joining must have a passport which would save them 85 quid for everyone that doesn't already have one. Bearing in mind, 76% of UK adults already have one. With penny-pinching on that scale, there's no wonder the ROP is quite different to PRMC in order to ensure direct comparisons are difficult.

One plausible argument I've seen to justify ROP is to there is a longer period to determine medical suitability in the initial stages. There are other strong cases for ROP, but I'm half expecting someone to announce it was a trial (it isn't) that has now concluded, the results analysed and a reversion to the original selection system.

Probably worth adding this is just my random thoughts, I've no evidence to support my opinion & not heard anyone echo my thoughts in recruiting or from within the Corps.

That's some insight and good points.

Regarding the medical side of ROP as this is my main concern about applying, if you're Not Finally Approved Medically what is your situation about returning to attempt again if it is just a minor injury that needs time to heal, I'm at the upper age limit so would no doubt turn 33 while in training.

Is there some room to manoeuvre if an applicant has already joined up and shown potential, I assume a discharge would mean reapplying and going through all the stages again?

 

[Sprint0205]

Isn't the idea of the ROP to increase the pass rate in RT? Because it is "progressive", Recruits are less likely to get injured and they will start proper training in better shape?

 

[Advocado]

The reason behind the VPJFT and the ROP being the new process into mainstream training is not due to numbers or COVID-19.

The ROP was an idea that was in the pipeline long before COVID. The process was originally going to be:

The old PJFT
PRMC
ROP
Mainstream training.

The idea of the ROP was to set the conditions for recruits to be more successful in training by having 4 weeks of a more relaxed tuition, easing them into military life so that recruits take on board key admin skills better.

Then came the risk of Sickle Cell Trait. Sickle Cell trait essentially being an underlying condition (primarily in commonwealth citizens) which carried the risk of maximal physical training causing death.

Around the same time that sickle cell trait became a growing concern, COVID was lurking and becoming an issue.

Hence the current course of action.

vPJFT, then ROP, then mainstream.

It's as COVID safe as possible, the four weeks conditioning (non-maximal) physical preparation on the ROP significantly reduces the risk of death amongst those with sickle cell trait and the ROP is pass or fail so it still acts as a selection filter into training.

I imagine post covid that vPJFT and PRMC will return, however the ROP is there to stay.

 

[Oldtimer]

Thank you for that extremely informative post, that covers all my questions about it.

 

[Ninja_Stoker]

The reason behind the VPJFT and the ROP being the new process into mainstream training is not due to numbers or COVID-19.

The ROP was an idea that was in the pipeline long before COVID. The process was originally going to be:

The old PJFT
PRMC
ROP
Mainstream training.

The idea of the ROP was to set the conditions for recruits to be more successful in training by having 4 weeks of a more relaxed tuition, easing them into military life so that recruits take on board key admin skills better.

Then came the risk of Sickle Cell Trait. Sickle Cell trait essentially being an underlying condition (primarily in commonwealth citizens) which carried the risk of maximal physical training causing death.

Around the same time that sickle cell trait became a growing concern, COVID was lurking and becoming an issue.

Hence the current course of action.

vPJFT, then ROP, then mainstream.

It's as COVID safe as possible, the four weeks conditioning (non-maximal) physical preparation on the ROP significantly reduces the risk of death amongst those with sickle cell trait and the ROP is pass or fail so it still acts as a selection filter into training.

I imagine post covid that vPJFT and PRMC will return, however the ROP is there to stay.

Yep, I'd heard the sickle cell thing too, hence the 'medical suitability' comment.

If the sickle cell issue is actually the true reason for ROP, then the world has truly gone mad in the manner the Corps is trying to deal even-handedly with medical screening without appearing discriminatory.

The ROP has been around for over a decade. It previously called the PRMDC and heralded a success because very few people failed the physical assessment at the end of it. Others saw it as discriminatory as it was only offered to those with a near-miss PRMC fail.

I suspect the ROP was the brainchild of someone who remembers the PRMDC, which was ditched in about 2005 or 6 due to cost: https://www.royalmarines.uk/threads/if-you-fail-your-prmc-how-long-before-a-re-take.3426/#post-23194

 

[ThreadpigeonsAlpha]

The pmrc was used for a long time.
Yes it would be cheaper to use the pmrc but there was a lot of people that would complete it and pass then never return to ctc for many reasons some just decided they didn't want to do it or others becuse at points there was an 8 month wait from pmrc to starting training.
Plus the rop will give people a better look at what life is like in training so as a result there should be less people dropping out of training because they don't want to be there.
Obviously it's still relatively new thing so only time will tell.
Finally the if you get in and pass you will learn there is a lot that the milltary dose that makes no sense.

If they passed PRMC then wrapped their bangers in, are they the kind of people we want in the corps?

My view point on it which I can’t get my head round is that PRMC can be worked into someone with a job full time employment before passing and then establishing a decent plan to leave that employment to start training.

For ROP you are asking people to jack in full time employment for 4 weeks so if they do decide to leave at 28days because it’s not suitable for them, they are then left high and dry. This could potentially put people off. Especially those with families or other issues.

The PRMC was a job interview, and if it took 8 months to get people into a troop, then why don’t they change the system? And surely if manning is that low anyway, it shouldn’t take 8 months to get people into a troop.

 

[Oldtimer]

If they passed PRMC then wrapped their bangers in, are they the kind of people we want in the corps?

My view point on it which I can’t get my head round is that PRMC can be worked into someone with a job full time employment before passing and then establishing a decent plan to leave that employment to start training.

For ROP you are asking people to jack in full time employment for 4 weeks so if they do decide to leave at 28days because it’s not suitable for them, they are then left high and dry. This could potentially put people off. Especially those with families or other issues.

The PRMC was a job interview, and if it took 8 months to get people into a troop, then why don’t they change the system? And surely if manning is that low anyway, it shouldn’t take 8 months to get people into a troop.

From the information I gathered as well is that if you get a simple medical injury occur you're more then likely to be discharged if it doesn't heal in time before another ROP or Troop starts.

Seems a bit ridiculous to me that they're more then willing to let go a recruit who has shown potential by passing ROP or very close to it or who is in the early weeks of recruit training. But the flip side take on a new recruit who may fail ROP or decided to leave at the end.

Example of 4 weeks pay may see some of the minor injuries healed and returned to training, I totally understand why recurring injuries or undisclosed issues should be medically discharged.

It could be a factor that leaving a career to join and the current issues around employment and covid may see a lot of good candidates go to other armed forces.

 

[Chelonian]

From the information I gathered as well is that if you get a simple medical injury occur you're more then likely to be discharged if it doesn't heal in time before another ROP or Troop starts.

Each individual is clinically assessed. Some Recruits have been assigned light duties until a new ROP starts.

 

[Oldtimer]

What is the situation with older applicants that join at 32-33 age but get injured while training discharged for an injury which will take some time to heal.

Is it possible to reapply and join when fit, as a technically they have joined the service and been issued a service number already before from what I've read.

 

[G_commando]

If they passed PRMC then wrapped their bangers in, are they the kind of people we want in the corps?

My view point on it which I can’t get my head round is that PRMC can be worked into someone with a job full time employment before passing and then establishing a decent plan to leave that employment to start training.

For ROP you are asking people to jack in full time employment for 4 weeks so if they do decide to leave at 28days because it’s not suitable for them, they are then left high and dry. This could potentially put people off. Especially those with families or other issues.

The PRMC was a job interview, and if it took 8 months to get people into a troop, then why don’t they change the system? And surely if manning is that low anyway, it shouldn’t take 8 months to get people into a troop.

Every one is different. Some people apply for all 3 forces and see what happens. Some easily pass the pmrc but decide its not for them. Some pass then get better offers from civi Street. Like I said at one point it was an 8/ 9 month wait after passing the pmrc before you got an entry date. Some people just don't want to wait and arnt too bothered who they join there are some branches of the army where with in 2 months of applying you could be in training earning money. So it's defnatly not the case of they arnt the people we want.

 

[G_commando]

What is the situation with older applicants that join at 32-33 age but get injured while training discharged for an injury which will take some time to heal.

Is it possible to reapply and join when fit, as a technically they have joined the service and been issued a service number already before from what I've read.

Nope you will have missed out.

 

[TheRents]

An interesting thread

I guess in the end when this all plays out it will be down to the bean counters and stats guys to see if the new system gives a better cost to pass out ratio than the old one.
Although ROP increases the length of training by just over 12%, I doubt it adds this to the overall budget.
A significant part of the training costs come later on in the program when the larger exercises involve more assets andtherefore greater cost to the Corps.

Although numbers dropping out of ROP appear to be as high or higher than the old PRMC system, if it leads to better retention rates during the last 32 weeks it could still lead to a lower cost per RM passing out of CTC ....

I sure time will tell and ‘tweaking’ of the program will undoubtedly occur!