Side Arms / 5.56

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Stacka

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Sir,

Thought you'd be the best to answer this.

Why dont Marines use side arms on opperations or at least it be incorprated in training. I noticed a few different regiments / us marines using them as a back up. Why dont the Royal Marines?

also....

Why do we use 5.56mm Rounds in the SA80, where as the ak takes a 7.62mm round. Surely it would make sense as we could just pick up AK rounds if things were to go a bit pear?

Cheers,
Stacka
 

jim87spencer

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The round is supposed to be the standard amongst NATO contributers, i guess if one is running short or is too far away a supply from a closer situated foriegn unit can be flown in,

dont know why marines arent assigned a sidearm, maybe its because no *text deleted**text deleted*ers are *text deleted* get that close! ;-)

I think there are also rules about scavenging off the enemy, i know you are'nt supposd to keep battle trophy's... i havnt been to iraq or afghanistan so im not totally sure, but im sure if you "found" an AK47 and returned to base with it you wouldnt be allowed to add it to your loadout.
 

pcampbell87

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The maxium effective range of most handguns is less than 50 metres and even at closer ranges the stopping power will be nothing compared to an assault rifle.

Unless you are on close protection duties then there is no real need for a handgun.
 
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tricky123

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I think it would make more sense to have one if everything else, incase of stoppages especially in CQB.
If your gun jams then in that your fcuked.

MS
 

Stacka

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I think it would make more sense to have one if everything else, incase of stoppages especially in CQB.
If your gun jams then in that your fcuked.

MS

My poitn, i think people are assuming its as a primary weopon.

Side arm, as in a back up.
 
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Sotiris

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It's called the standard 5.56 NATO round because it is just that. With the exception of Greece and Germany (7.62) everyone else uses 5.56. All the coalition troops use the same ammunition so it makes operations easier.

There are a lot of varying arguments over why the coalition uses that calibre. Some say it's more deadly, some say less. But overall it's lighter, you can carry more rounds and you can fit more rounds in the magazines.

You can fit 30 rounds of 5.56 in an SA80 A2's magazine. 25 if you're really pushing it, it may damage the springs in the magazine, in the G3 A3 (2nd most popular rifle after AK47).

As for the sidearms, I'm pretty sure I read on the YO training calendar that you get trained on it. I don't know why NCO's arn't trained on it. It may be tradition. You look all the way back to WW1 and the Officer went over the top with his Webley, NCO's using Lee Enfield....I'd rather have the rifle!
 

mike webb

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good question on the hand gun stacka.. im sure RMRO will be able to explain all when he appears.

as for the calibre size, it was the americans who first pushed for the 5.56 round to be used, we were in favour of a larger bullet but they got their own way and it was then broaded adopted by Nato countries. the calibre 5.56 is very fast and very accurate. something it has over the larger 7.62 which is much slower... some 400mph slower... and obviously less accurate as the large round starts to tumble through the air after some time.. of course the 5.56 needs to be that much faster because it has less mass behind it so needs more kenetic energy to kill a target.

i suppose when you've got the facts infront of you what do you go for? although nowadays with the increased use of bodya armour the 5.56 is starting to show inadequacies in the ability to take down a target first time; due to its smaller size, resulting in reduced kenetic energy.

mike
 

Stacka

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good question on the hand gun stacka.. im sure RMRO will be able to explain all when he appears.

as for the calibre size, it was the americans who first pushed for the 5.56 round to be used, we were in favour of a larger bullet but they got their own way and it was then broaded adopted by Nato countries. the calibre 5.56 is very fast and very accurate. something it has over the larger 7.62 which is much slower... some 400mph slower... and obviously less accurate as the large round starts to tumble through the air after some time.. of course the 5.56 needs to be that much faster because it has less mass behind it so needs more kenetic energy to kill a target.

i suppose when you've got the facts infront of you what do you go for? although nowadays with the increased use of bodya armour the 5.56 is starting to show inadequacies in the ability to take down a target first time; due to its smaller size, resulting in reduced kenetic energy.

mike

Ahhh i see, that makes total sense.

There is a formula to repesent this, but i wont bore you all with it. Im just being blonde
 

Stacka

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thinking about it though a 6.8x51mm round would have optimun effect wouldnt it? Both velocity and accuracy?
 

AlexT

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I think one of the official lines is that the 5.56 round is designed to wound enemy soldiers rather than kill, thus increasing enemy wounded and demoralizing them and forcing a retreat/withdrawal. Lets be honest though any size round can kill...
 

Stacka

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I think one of the official lines is that the 5.56 round is designed to wound enemy soldiers rather than kill, thus increasing enemy wounded and demoralizing them and forcing a retreat/withdrawal. Lets be honest though any size round can kill...

Wel placed round,

Hitting some one small or from distance may not even branch off from the wound channel. And if you hit a limb i hear the 5.56mm doesnt usually fragment. Obviously taking your enemy down, but not killing him
 

a flying dodo

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The best thing you can do to an enemy is wounding them permenantly, for example taking an arm off.

If you kill someone, all you have to do is bury them.

On the other hand if you wound an enemy severly, you effectivly take atleast 3 enemies off the battle feild. One is wounded, and the other two are carrying the wounded. However odds are more would leave too.

After this there is then the fact of the resources ofkeeping this soldier alive and doing your best to save what limbs etc the doctors can. Resources mean, money, manpower and time.

:)
 

Stacka

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I dont know, the threat were fighting now is a bit different.

The chances are theyd blowm them self up for martyrdm, especially if you were clearing a compound.

Saying that, what do we know.....no of us have been there yet have we, *text deleted*
 

AdmiralAwesome

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The best thing you can do to an enemy is wounding them permenantly, for example taking an arm off.

If you kill someone, all you have to do is bury them.

On the other hand if you wound an enemy severly, you effectivly take atleast 3 enemies off the battle feild. One is wounded, and the other two are carrying the wounded. However odds are more would leave too.

After this there is then the fact of the resources ofkeeping this soldier alive and doing your best to save what limbs etc the doctors can. Resources mean, money, manpower and time.

:)

And if you wound a die-hard jihadi, he'll pull the pin on a grenade when you get close to him...
 

mike webb

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thinking about it though a 6.8x51mm round would have optimun effect wouldnt it? Both velocity and accuracy?


yeah there has been an increased interest in the 6.82 calibre which has been earmarked as bridging the gap between the speed of the 5.56 and the 7.62. its fast and accurate whilst still having a strong stopping power. i recon when we come to renew our own battle rifle and look for replacements for the SA80, the 6.82 round will be a consideration for our future weapon.

mike
 

Stacka

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Thinking about i would imagine a 7.62 round would be wholey inacurate on rapid fire.
 
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The 5.56mm round is used because it is the NATO standard and everyone else (USA)uses them. One of the lessons learnt from the Falklands was that 7.62mm rounds often go straight through people, yes they mess you up spectacularly but they don't always incapacitate the enemy. The 5.56mm enters the body and tumbles causing massive internal damage, it's nothing to do with injuring the victim as the round is designed to kill. We never fire to injure people, if the decision has been taken to kill, then that's what you do.
The other advantage of 5.56mm is that you can carry much more of it because it is lighter. Whether or not I would use Afghan weapons is totally dependant upon the situation. I would not use Afghan ammo regularly as it is generally old and of poor quality.
On Ops, Officers carry pistols for a number of reasons. Firstly, there are times when you may want to sling your rifle (let it drop to your side) such as if you were dealing with civys or Tribal elders and wanted to take a less aggressive approach. The pistol still allows you to have something 'punchy' should the *text deleted**text deleted* hit the fan. Secondly, it marks the Officer out amongst the Troop so Tribal elders come and speak to you.
The Marines don't often carry them (with the exception of Snipers and Machine Gunners) because they do not need them. It would just be another bit of kit to carry. If your rifle fails for some reason, you get out of the way and your oppo takes on the enemy. Pistols only have an effective range of 40-50m anyway, they are used by Hollywood movie stars and the Americans who have an in built philosophy that everyone needs a secondary weapon (I think that they're wrong!).
 

Stacka

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Cheers sir, theres the answer.

Next question whilst your online.

Dragon Skin body armour, have we tested it yet....will it be coming in?
 
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Never heard of it but will ask around. The Osprey stuff we have now is extremely good and will take a fair few 7.62 rounds, I can't elaborate too much on it for security reasons. I doubt they will look at replacing it soon as it has only just come into service.
 
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