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STANDARDS.

Discussion in 'Jollies Bar' started by Rover, Jan 13, 2019.

  1. Rover

    Rover Moderator

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    When Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson announced last year that women could join infantry regiments, officials insisted standards would not be relaxed and said female candidates would have to be as fit as male soldiers.

    Former SAS commander Tim Collins said that the Army faced a stark choice: ‘We can either abandon our ability to complete gruelling military operations in order to fall into line with political correctness or accept that there are some things females cannot do biologically.

    ‘If standards are modified to accommodate women, this will be utterly misguided.’

    A good article.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...y-furious-male-soldiers-staged-rebellion.html
     
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  2. ThreadpigeonsAlpha

    ThreadpigeonsAlpha Royal Marines Commando

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    “The Ministry of Defence tried to censor a documentary about the Parachute Regiment – for fear that it made members of the elite regiment look too aggressive.

    Whitehall mandarins pleaded with officers to curb their violent behaviour and foul language when cameras were filming them training their troops – but the battle-hardened veterans refused.

    Defence chiefs also wanted to cut scenes in which Paras mocked troops from other regiments for not being as tough as them.

    And the producers of ITV’s The Paras: Men Of War refused to tone down their programme, which showed instructors manhandling junior soldiers and screaming in their faces.

    The scenes, seen by more than two million viewers, fly in the face of the MoD’s moves to soften the image of the Army and its current recruitment drive encouraging sensitive ‘snowflakes’ to enlist to plug shortages in troop numbers.“

    It’s actuall refreshing to hear this. And from what I have seen. The Paras documentary is head and shoulders above the others.


    “But TV viewers are likely to be shocked tonight when they see a woman being badly beaten by a male contestant on Channel 4’s SAS: Who Dares Wins.”

    “Nathaniel does not hold back, smashing Miss Gabbitas in the face several times before landing hard blows to her head until she falls down.

    The episode leaves her dishevelled, bruised and teary, prompting Middleton to tell the recruits: ‘The enemy doesn’t care what gender, race or religion you are.’“

    fair play she picked a bloke and not a fellow chick to fight. That’s ballsy.
     
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  3. Caversham

    Caversham Former RM Commando, Moderator

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    Despite all the mutterings of politicians and Generals that standards will not be lowered, this indicates that at a local level, with senior staff involved, it will happen.

    It took real balls for the guys passing to stand their ground and demand that she, along with the others, be failed. What's the guessing that the pre-course briefing notes will be amended to remove the requirement to pass the march in order to stay on the course.

    I can remember a few years ago there was an article in the G&L by the Chief Instructor on the JCC. The first part of the course is to pass a four mile speed march on Day 1. Apparently a large number failed, citing several reasons for failure, but he was having none of it and if memory serves me right, RTUd all those that failed, with letters sent to the various Commanding Officers about sending candidates on a course ill prepared. His stance worked and the Corps backed him. It makes you wonder if the same will happen in the future.

    Alan
     
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  4. rkec

    rkec New Member

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    "Official MoD sources admitted last night there had been ‘uproar’ on the course following the march and that it had taken more than a day for a decision to be taken on the fate of the 15 soldiers, including Cpl Dougherty. They added that she had been taken off the course following a ‘review’ of her result."

    Who's in charge of the show now then? That's a nice precedent they just set there. All the other blokes now know what to do going forth.
     
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  5. Chelonian

    Chelonian Moderator

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    An extract from the Daily Wail link:

    "Despite being a qualified personal fitness trainer and a member of the Army’s athletics squad, the 29-year-old took too long to finish the challenge."

    Her being an athlete is irrelevant, as it would be for a male rank. Brecon is not a warm gym nor is it a manicured track.

    Edited to add: In a different era not only would the ranks who failed a criterion test have been RTUd but so would those who had passed it but who subsequently expressed dissent about the way the course was being managed and who threatened to run weeping to the media.
     
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  6. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker Admin

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    This Army incident of alleged duplicity, if actually true, shows poor management on the face of it, the inference being they changed the regulations, placing this ahead of operational capability...then backed down. Not a good look. :)
     
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  7. Chelonian

    Chelonian Moderator

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    Aside from the Army’s reputational damage (which it thoroughly deserves) the single biggest casualty in this farce is Corporal Dougherty herself. She attended and failed an element of a course. No shame in that. Plenty of professionally capable male ranks have failed that course too.
    It’s unlikely that she would have wanted any exceptions to have been made for her but it’s equally unlikely that her opinion on the matter was sought.

    Her professional reputation has effectively been trashed by an apparently poor decision by a weak command.
     
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  8. dodgyknees

    dodgyknees Active Member

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    If true, good on the guys for standing their ground. This is a career course for the infantry, not a social experiment and no-one wants their achievements devalued by policy.

    What is a shame is that because of the spotlight on women, any flex the OC may have had to allow a re-sit or pass at risk has been removed.

    Suspect this is the first of many incidents like this.
     
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  9. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker Admin

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    Were CFT retakes or "deferred passes" standard practice previously on career courses? If so, then the irony is the standards have actually got tougher.

    If retakes were not SOPs previously, it's a rather short-sighted decision to implement change at this particular juncture and to back-track on a decision due to unpopularity is a very poor example of leadership to display on a professional career course.
     
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  10. westy

    westy Well-Known Member

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    I believe the Daily Mail should have protected her better, I can guarantee she doesn’t want this negative publicity!!
     
  11. dodgyknees

    dodgyknees Active Member

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    Not sure to be honest as it's been a while since I've been involved in Infantry training. It is relatively common on other CLM courses for people to be given a re-show, normally on a Friday afternoon or Saturday morning. What does surprise me here is that 20% oor soldiers on the PSBC would fail something as basic as a CFT!
     
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  12. Chelonian

    Chelonian Moderator

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    Sadly, it and most other media sources will happily toss an individual under the bus for a few column inches. The Army could clarify that Cpl Dougherty was unhappy with the decision process (if that was indeed the case) but it's unlikely to do so.
     
  13. goatstarer

    goatstarer New Member

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    A point that isn't mentioned, why, if the story is at all correct, has she attended PSBC, without attending SCBC.
    The question is you don't do PSBC until you've completed SCBC. This was the case when I was in, no exceptions to the rules then, unless something has drastically changed. I could go into the course in detail, but I'll hold back for now. However a CFT along with other basic standards is a pre course requirement (to have passed) these basic tests are also part of the initial days on both SCBC and PSBC before progressing further.
     
  14. dodgyknees

    dodgyknees Active Member

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    Women are being fast tracked through PSBC to qualify as DS at ITC for when female recruits arrive. As to pre-course prep she, and the others, may have got a paper pass or completed the test over flat rather than undulating ground. Both cases show an inexcusable failure in the chain of command, but this is not the first time it has happened.
     
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  15. Wessex

    Wessex Member

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    It’s ridiculous to allow women (or men) to pass when they simply haven’t met the standards, it doesn’t do women any favours at all and actually makes things way more difficult for them.

    It reminds me of Kara Hultgreen who was one of the first female fighter pilots in the US Navy in the 90s

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Hultgreen

    The US Navy at the time were under massive pressure to get female pilots in to combat squadrons and were also in a race at the same time with the US Air Force who were also trying to get their first female fighter pilots. It can’t be proven one way or the other but there are strong indications that Hultgreen just wasn’t good enough in pilot training, she made errors that should have failed her but was allowed to pass due to pressure from above.

    A few months after qualifying, she screwed up on a carrier landing, crashed in to the sea and was killed. Rumour has it that she made the same error in training as the one which lead to her death but with rumours of cover up nobody outside of the US Navy can ever be sure whether she was actually qualified to be in that pilots seat. Of course it exploded a whole who-ha at the time about women never ever being allowed to fly a fighter.

    What is sure is that there are now female fighter pilots in the US Navy including ex-pilot Tammy Jo Shults who landed the Southwest Airlines plane last year that suffered engine failure. It proves that women can pass fighter pilot training without any special treatment or favours and should be allowed to pass or fail as appropriate the same as men are. Fighter training is extremely tough, tons of men fail it. By making a big deal out of things and succumbing to pressure, the powers that be in the US Navy potentially (if rumours are true) killed Kara Hultgreen.

    Moral of the story, standards are there for a reason. Don’t make a big deal of out women attempting any selection/training. Treat them exactly like any bloke and if they pass they pass and if they fail they fail.
     
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  16. Ninja_Stoker

    Ninja_Stoker Admin

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  17. rkec

    rkec New Member

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    IBS state that everyone that failed was RTU'd. The DM says that. Question is, were they RTU'd at the usual speed.

    By not detailing that in their reply in that tweet, makes you wonder.
     
  18. Resigned28

    Resigned28 Guest

    So are the standards for non-infantry still different for men and women or are they the same?
     
  19. dodgyknees

    dodgyknees Active Member

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    Yes. They are being aligned this year is the word on the street. Whether that will be up to the men's standard or down
    , we will have to wait and see. I think the BPFA will go the way of the CFT where there is a whole new test introduced.
     
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  20. Chelonian

    Chelonian Moderator

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    My working environment is also littered with acronyms. NFT (Normal for Totnes) being a common one.
    But my favourite three-letter-acronym will always be TLA.
    CBA being a close second, obviously. :)