The Russian Conflict

[Oz22]

After watching all the news recently about the Russian Conflict with Georgia, it seems to be getting more and more serious.
What are peoples views on it all and what do you think the chances are that the West might go to war with Russia? after all Russia's relationship with the US and the Brits has been failing for a while now.

 

[Chris]

Well if war comes around I fairly certain that 90% of the NATO and UN forces will take arms against Russia, but there will be alot more political pressure before the west take on Russia.

Personally while yes the Russians are going overboard at the moment, it serves the Georgians right as they intended to quell the separatist motives of South Ossetia with force rather than being diplomatic (My opinion is that Georgia only wanted to forgo the diplomatic route so that they could gain a faster entry into NATO) about the situation and now that they are no longer the superior force we are all meant to feel sorry for them as the Russians give them a somewhat well deserved kick. That said however Russia really should stop their forces for the moment and move to a more peaceful resolution.

 

[gedro]

Personally, the US and other countries can threaten russia all they want, no country is going to actually use force against russia as its got nuclear weapons, especially another nuclear state like the US, that would pretty much guarantee M.A.D for both sides, and most of the world, while I don't agree with what russia are doing, I say leave them to it, its their war, *cough* conflict, not ours, if we leave them be its not going to effect us.

thats my opinion.

:racer::racer:

 

[AdmiralAwesome]

It would seem to me the US is already sort of coming in on the Georgian side.

Within days of it kicking off, the US Airforce is taking Georgian troops from Iraq back to Georgia.

 

[gedro]

Going off them statistics on the Skum website, it is definitely suicide. Georgia doesn't stand a chance no matter how well their military is trained, not against that shear brute force of Russia. They fail to mention the amount of nuclear weapons that Russia has, going off wikipedia, they have around 6000 weapons they could use, and 16.000 in total, so being around 10.000 in reserve, if I understand it correctly. :sick:

 

[MTW]

its all dependant on NATO, if they grant georgia mebership into NATO then all NATO forces will get involved and support georgia. the US has already got bases being built nearby and naval movements planned for the north sea.

 

[GreyWing]

Having watched the coverage on sky news and BBC you do get a kind of biased view of the situation and they don't question George Bush on his claims of observing a foreign countries sovereignty, erh like Iraq? Or bombing apartment buildings, like our weapons are always spot on.

If you are broad minded and want the other side of it. you might want to try sky 512 and 514 Russia Today and Al Jazeera.

I have not really seen the Russian one but Al Jazeera in my book is a lot more fair and balanced than the BBC. You might not like what they say, but it is a very good organisation. Plus the BBC was banned from certain warships in op telic by the sailors because of the crap they were talking.

 

[Seedytucker]

unfortunately i've got virgin media now, miss Al Jazeera.
personally i think georgia kinda deserved a slapped wrist but it's looking like russia's going further now and that could make things interesting...
problem is if georgia falls russia truly has it's foot on europes trachea as georgia currently has the only pipeline to europe that doesn't go through russia, we rely on russia for energy enough as it is, when/if that happens it's U.S. Vs everyone as europe will have to comply with russia or go to war and i doubt any of the former warsaw pact would want to do that, so US isn't going to allow that to happen are they....
i have to say it worries me russia potentially holding europe to ransom that being said is it any different to what america does currently with technology?
i'm still up for a eurasian alliance. russia after all was historically, at least in part, a part of europe, why shouldnt they be again? it would remove the threat of china aswell. just depends on how iron fisted the ruskies would be in the EU

 

[gedro]

Yeah, the majority of the major media channels are biased, and I mean really biased, the government tells them what they can say, so in effect, influences the public on the events, so in effect, gives you a biased opinion as they arn't given the full facts, but the facts and lies of what they want you to see so you form an opinion on the side that the government are with, not against. It's a joke really, gone are the days of unbiased reporting.

www.rense.com :bud::bud:

 

[MrSkippy]

Aye but with both sides spouting crap it doesnt really matter which news channel you watch - they will all be full of *text deleted**text deleted* at the source haha.

Problem is, it can be looked at it like this:
Russia has given passports to citizens within gerogias internationally recognised borders, with the possible intention to use any aggression against them as a reason to enact a military action.

Anyone got any statistics or military sources about how long an armoured division takes to mobilise and gear for war? Cant be a day surely... So I find it a bit amusing russia is able to send so much force into south ossetia so quickly.

And why as the militias being armed by russia? They are on georgian territory and apparantly defended by russian peacekeepers, but now they somehow have managed to get 87 tanks (*text deleted* go find that link again now damnit).

*text deleted* I think Ivan is popping his head up to gain influence and power in the region again - putin has stated many times that he'd like soviet union type power for the country again, and transferring power to PM from pres just as he hopped over? Smart guy to say the least, at least they have a great aggressive leader. We got a one eyed shaved fat ape... go us.

End of the day - the US and UK cou;d barely afford to get into a conflict now, as much as I enjoy a good nationalistic "bomb the *text deleted**text deleted**text deleted**s" parade it just isn't feasable with a nation such as russia. Sure USA could use carrier groups and missiles, but you cant win a conflict with just airpower (unless trying to batter into submission i guess) and without the EU, we can't do it.
Rest of europe are a waste of space militarily - *text deleted* they should be booted from nato and lose their UN seats as they do jack *text deleted**text deleted* with them anyway aside from be a bunch of assholes.


Uh.. rant over for now, before i start repeating myself haha

 

[GreyWing]

Problem is, it can be looked at it like this:
Russia has given passports to citizens within gerogias internationally recognised borders, with the possible intention to use any aggression against them as a reason to enact a military action.

Trouble is that International recognised borders don't exist. Isreal are in Palestine. Kosovo is not recognised by Spain, Greece, Russia and every other country that is fighting independent break away provinces, these are just 2, there are hundreds of border disputes that are recognised by some countries and not by others.

Russia does not recognise Ossetia to be a part of Georgia, they see it as an independent country just as me and you see Belgium. They would see it as we would see Belgium being invaded by France, just as Georgia moved troops into Osettia last week.

It's certainly one screwed up conflict and I for one haven't got a clue who started it, who is shooting at who and why. So apart from that just a normal little war I suppose.

 

[MrSkippy]

Aye indeed, But you'd think with nations in the UN they would have some form of common consensus as to what the international borders are. Apparantly not haha.

Makes more sense every day to scrap the UN and NATO and form something new , with similar thinking people with similar agendas (IE UK, US, Aus, NZ and the Dutch), people with the balls to actually go and help people.

But wishing for that, is like wishing for a bigger budget for the MoD.. ain't *text deleted* happen in this lifetime.

 

[MrSkippy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7553508.stm


Looks like cameron has grown balls suddenly, calling for georgia to get into NATO faster *text deleted*.

Wew war! Gives us jobs I guess :\

 

[gedro]

The only good thing war has ever brought to the human race, is inventions, without war we wouldn't be where we are today.

 

[hughbrown]

Personally i think Georgia can go *text deleted**text deleted* themselves,
Russia has taken the city of Gori which effectivly cuts the country in half as it is on the only highway in the country,
Georgia shot first and they knew they were fireing at civilians.
If you think about it Russia actually has more legal leeway to attack untill Georgia signs a non-aggresion pact about S.Ossetia than NATO had with Serbia.

Western leaders are so quick to mouth of about the Kremlins actions,
and the Media is quick to portray the Russians as big bad monsters however..
According to Russian statistics 2,000 Civilians are dead and a further 30,000 had to flee to N.Ossetia.
The media is quick to say that this has not been independantly verified but untill it has we need to take it at face value.

Russia has publicaly stated that Georgia while continue to be attacked untill they sign but Tbilisi hasnt signed yet.
Even though Russia has complete air supperiority of Georgia, and Russian ships are blocking any marine vessels from entering Georgian waters.

And before people say this is an over the top attack by Russia,
Nearly every S.Ossetian civilian is a Russian citizen.

If the situation was reversed and a Russian-aligned country attacked a USA-aligned country and massacred the civilians,
how long do you think it would take for the USMC to be in that country and a carrier task force on the way to blockade/provide air support????

 

[Seedytucker]

not sure i agree with all the above although i do get the impression georgia is only doing this as it thinks NATO will come and wipe it's tears for it, but looking at the situation objectively i think we should get out of NATO, europe and russia should form their own alliance (simultaneously securing oil wealth for up to 60 years) and give a big fingers up to the US who do nothing but take advantage and bully wherever possible

 

[hughbrown]

but looking at the situation objectively i think we should get out of NATO, europe and russia should form their own alliance (simultaneously securing oil wealth for up to 60 years)

:shakehands:
Very good idea,
but with New Liabour in power it wont happen,
they are all too far up Bush's *text deleted*

 

[Sotiris]

Anyone got any statistics or military sources about how long an armoured division takes to mobilise and gear for war?

Not at division strength, but it took us about 50 mins to empty the 285th Mechanized of 40 BMP2's, each carrying 6 light infantry support. Also we had a few dozen support vehicles carrying .50, Milan and TOW.

 

[Seedytucker]

balls. i clicked your link...
back on subject though i heard rumour it's all nearly over though there may be war crime charges directed at both sides??

 

[robigunner88]

Anyone see any footage of the Russians fighting? Well i've just been watching some shots on the BBC. The Russians don't like professional at all. They wear mixed dress, trainers with combats and non military tops. I've noticed this somewhere elses before. The only thing that makes them a threat is the size of their forces and of course nuclear weapons.
However, the Georgians like top notch with their equipment( you would do with the backing of the USA) They look far more professional than the Russians but of course just a tiny nation with a tiny army.

I wouldn't be suprised if man to man the Georgians are slightly better trained.