Why do degrees make such a difference?

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Sotiris

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I find it strange that the Corps put so much faith in a degree. Why do they consider graduates worthy of double pay, and fast tracking up the promotional ladder to Captain? Of course, I'm not complaining, simply curious.

Surely it's not that difficult to obtain a degree these days? With subjects such as David Beckham Studies and curry making, there's a plethora of equally useless degrees up for grabs out there. From what I understand, the Corps don't give a damn what you studied as long as you've got the certificate to prove it.

By having one I don't believe that it's valid proof that you are more likely to be a more competent leader. So why propell degree holders into the upper ranks of command faster then their "not-so-well-educated" peers?
 

foggers

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Well your degree probably has a small effect in the AIB or somewhere along the lines.

It also shows you can commit to a 3 year period of working for a degree (regardless if it's "hard work" or not) and generally have more life experience.

Would you rather be lead into battle by someone who just finished their A Levels or someone who has a degree and is slightly older?
 

chrismc

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degree

of course they should get double pay they deserve it staying on school and going to uni which many of us could NOT have done
 
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Sotiris

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Captain Orlando rogers has no degree. During the making of Commando: On the Front Line, he was a 2nd Lft. Why is getting a degree and staying on at school something we can't all do?
 
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Sotiris

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Well your degree probably has a small effect in the AIB or somewhere along the lines.

It also shows you can commit to a 3 year period of working for a degree (regardless if it's "hard work" or not) and generally have more life experience.

Would you rather be lead into battle by someone who just finished their A Levels or someone who has a degree and is slightly older?

I agree, you'd appreciate it if your leader had more life experience. But then...I don't really consider time spent at university to be a generally maturing experience. Personally, I've grown up a lot during my time at uni. But that has nothing to do with university. From what I've seen so far, and I've nearly finished my degree, if you're the kind of person who goes out there and lives life, you'd do so with or without a degree.
 
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Despite what you read in the papers getting a degree still requires an element of personal discipline and an understanding that A-Levels simply don't give you the education you require in the modern employment world. I know there are loads of pointless degrees out there, many of them wouldn't qualify you for much, but the vast majority of people that graduate do so with a degree that is worth something.
The other side of it is Life experience. You need to be able to be a professional and personal mentor to your Marines, you simply cannot fulfill that role as effectively if you have just left your parents house having done your A-Levels. University gives you the chance to develop your own personality, learn to live with people and stand up on your own two feet for a bit. Orlando Rogers was one of the few people who developed faster than most and passed the AIB at a young age. However, it is worth noting that he is in a minority and most people that pass the AIB have degrees because many of the A-Level candidates come across as a little immature or arrogant.
Remember that the Corps recruits from across a wide ranging society and most people simply are not ready to lead 30 RMs into combat after they have finished their A-Levels.
That's just my take on things... and Yes, I did go to University!
RMRO
 
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Sotiris

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Sir,

That all makes sense. I couldn't imagine any fresh A-level graduate taking over a troop. However, I wasn't implying that all those candidates who didn't have degrees should have come straight from college. I'm sure the board only recruit YO's on the basis that they are very mature and have had the experience that the AIB deem appropriate and indeed, at that point, aren't the AIB confident that the applicant has the potential to lead a troop of men to battle? Surely, when this is considered, the level of your education doesn't matter? You're either worthy for a position within the batch or you're not. The fact that most YO's tend to be graduates is beside the point.

What confuses me is that, once they've made their selection why should there be a segregation in wage and the speed at which they are promoted? Aren't the trials and challenges of the SIFT, POC and AIB leveling enough? Why isn't every member of the batch, that passes the gruelling selection process, considered equal at the start of their training?

Once again, I'm not trying to raise any hairs, I'm simply curious.

On another curious note, Sir, if you don't mind me asking, what did you study?
 

foggers

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Even if I were over brimming with confidence, I would be daunted at leading a troop of bootnecks at a young age.

Another thing you could say is that you have the chance to go to university so you may as well. It can show you something else from a career in RM but if you really want to join the RM then you will keep going, managing time between study, RMR/OTC. Otherwise you might get to university and want to do something else.

Also if you only join for a few years or it doesn't work out for whatever reason, you have a degree to fall back on.
 
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Are you aware that if you are over 21 when you enter training, you get promoted to Capt regardless of whether or not you have a degree?
Ultimately, graduates are more employable than non-grads and can expect to earn higher wages given that they have student loans to pay back. In many respects, I think that things have always been that way and always shall. The issue of seniority comes into play later on in your career but because I am not at that stage I can't really comment too much about it.
I did History at University which I thoroughly enjoyed. Currently reading '20th Century Battlefields' by Peter and Dan Snow. Bloody brilliant.
 

foggers

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I heard that promotion in the RM for officers was slow?

And I assume you mean Capt when training is completed? On the RM website it says you are 2Lt. at beginning of training and usually become Lt. when you complete it....
 

Lloydy101

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Captain Orlando rogers has no degree. During the making of Commando: On the Front Line, he was a 2nd Lft. Why is getting a degree and staying on at school something we can't all do?

Isnt Orlando Rogers in Commando: On the Front line an Lt not a 2nd Lt?? i read somewhere that he he joined the corps when he was 18 (after A levels) and passed out at 19 being one of the youngest officers to pass out in 5 years or something!! But i would imgaine he would have been promoted since the programme and the atlantic row!
 

a flying dodo

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I think its because graduates will expect more money with their degree, simply because they have had 3 more years education. So therefore the corps ill pay more to get more applicants for the job.

Jut an opinion though.
 
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In all honesty, yes there are a lot of 'non-degrees' out there. However some are hard, I study a physical science and live with three art students. Im in my department 6/7 hours a day 5 days a week. On average they are in for 4 a week.

Ill be honest, if the RM didnt offer that graduate wage they would struggle greatly to recuit them. Its just not practical to graduate with the debt and join and earn £15000 a year.

And considering my year are the first to pay top up fees and therefore will have a debt of about £18,000, I know I wouldnt join if graduate wage was £15000.

BTBY
 
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Sotiris

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Isnt Orlando Rogers in Commando: On the Front line an Lt not a 2nd Lt?? i read somewhere that he he joined the corps when he was 18 (after A levels) and passed out at 19 being one of the youngest officers to pass out in 5 years or something!! But i would imgaine he would have been promoted since the programme and the atlantic row!


Sorry, I meant 1st LT, my mistake.
 

sb146564

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Hey, just thought I would put a little input into this topic. If you do enter the corps without a degree, you will have three years seniority and experience than those with the degree.
Money can't buy experience... for everything else, It's a state of mind!
Ste
 

Mitch

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In terms of Orlando Rogers he was 18 when he passed out and 21 during the filming of Commando: On The Frontline. At least, this is what the book says. I am pretty sure I read an article either in the Globe and Laurel or on the MOD website about RM OPTAG training and he had a few quotes in there but he was a Captain, so it was either a different officer or he had been promoted.
My view on the seniority thing is that graduates deserve it; they are older and have big debts to pay (generally). Also, as RMRO said, those who are over 21 when in training get the same rate of pay and they will have similar financial situations.
Those joining under 21 will generally not have the need for a much bigger wage packet and will probably be on the same earnings after 3/4 years, so it all equals out. I am looking to start training in September '10 and I will be 19. Am I bothered that I will be earning less than my graduate counterparts? Of course not. I won't have student loans to pay off, I will be doing something I have dreamed of for years and will still have enough disposable cash to go out on the *text deleted*! Plus, two of my friends want to join after uni by which time I will have spent a few years in the Corps (all things being good!) and will be earning the same.

Mitch
 

Ninja_Stoker

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Again, 80% of successful RM Officer applicants have a degree.

In essence that means they have a 3 year life-experience advantage over those joining immediately after A levels, more chance to have had leadership experience and are usually slightly more mature.

Industry also seeks these traits, so the services have to compete with civil industry to entice graduates. The Royal Marines are listed amongst the top 7 of UK graduate employers.

Most grads join with between £15-20K debt, those joining aged 18 earn around £50K in the Corps whilst the graduates earn their education/experience coupled with debt.

The choice is down to the individual - if you want to start on £28K, you know the answer.
 

Paul-M

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More likely than not the government make them do that to encourage people to undergo higher education.
 

Ninja_Stoker

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More likely than not the government make them do that to encourage people to undergo higher education.

Not necessarily, it's cheaper for the armed forces to employ two non-grads than one graduate.

Whilst the Government authorises the pay allowances recommended by the Armed Forces Pay Review Body, the services would get 5 years work out of an Other Rank before his graduate twin joined on the higher payscale.

Problem is if you want the best leaders, then you have to pay the commercial rate before the private jobs market snaps them up.
 

jimmy mal

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To add another dimension to this topic I am applying for the 09 YO batch, I have been working as a project manager in the construction industry since leaving school after my A-Levels and will have an HND by the time/if i get into YO training. I will be 21 which is the same age as someone applying straight from Uni.

Does this leave me at a disadvantage as i will be the same age as the graduate applicants but without a degree.

On the flip side I will have 3 years experience managing construction developments plus an HND.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Jim
 
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